CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: padfoot on January 03, 2005, 10:53:14 PM
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I haven't posted about this on here as I haven't been on much lately and it's been quite an upsetting situation in our house with the dogs.
Ollie has always been a bit possessive of things and people, and has a problem with resource guarding. We've tried to limit the episodes by not allowing him to have chews and toys unless he is in his crate and so on. But inevitably situations arise that we can't predict.
He has a particular problem with our other cocker Toby...he sometimes attacks him for no apparent reason. Toby put up with this at first and shrank off, but now he understandably retaliates and we have dogfights in our house :( Ollie is insanely jealous of Toby and Toby can't even come over for a hug sometimes without Ollie snarling.
Ollie then began having a go at our setter Millie now and then which obviously upset her. He would begin by trying to make her play and when she wouldn't respond, he would get too rough until he ended up really hurting her.
Twice my 4 yr old was nipped when he was in the way and Ollie suddenly went for one of the other dogs. This was pretty scary so we are now having to keep Ollie completely seperate from the children at all times while the other dogs are around unless we are actually holding either Ollie or the children.
Today he has attacked our cavalier Trixie. She found a piece of rawhide bone behind the sofa which we didn't know was there...the first we knew about it was when we heard her screeching and crying in pain and found Ollie attacking her. She is a nervous dog and she was very upset afterwards, although not seriously hurt.
He also spends a lot of his time chasing and trying to eat the cats....he was fine with cats when he arrived here, so why he has started doing this is beyond us :unsure:
I've got some details of behaviourists and we are in contact with the rescue Ollie came from, but I was just wondering if anyone else on here had gone through anything similar with dogs and if they found a solution?
Ollie is incidentally brilliant with people and does not guard things from us or the children.
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:( Sorry to hear this Kelly! Must be a nightmare to live with. I can't really suggest anything other than could it be an age/hormonal thing? I'm sure you may have thought of this already though. Its strange though that hes attacking the bitches too, I always thought that oposite sexe's don't fight except for perhaps a warning growl or snarl ;)
Hope you find a solution to this situation soon :)
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Hi Kelly,
I dont think I've posted on here about Bailey having the same problem either, but for a while he was an absolute nightmare! He is also possesive so no chews at all in this house or poor Blue gets it! :(
I dont want to go into the full extent of Baileys behaviour but believe me Kelly he was really hard work.
I contacted someone from TTouch and have had amazing results, you wouldn't believe the difference in him Kelly he is so much calmer and happier, it's the best money I've ever spent ;)
Things arnt totally solved here and I'm still working with him and wont give up on him, I'm so much happier with how things are here and so is Blue ;)
I'd recommend TTouch to anybody, I wasn't into all this massage thing but after seeing the results and after just a week there was a huge difference!
HTH Kelly, I know what a worrying time you must be going through.
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Thankyou both...Penny has given me some TTouch contacts, I will definitely give that a try now I've read it did help with Bailey.
I know what you mean Emma, I've never known a dog to attack my bitches before so it's come as a shock. But I don't believe Ollie is "nasty", I think it might be a mixture of age and hormones as you say, as well as the fact that he seems a naturally jealous dog.
Sometimes I wish I could talk to him, he is such a sweet dog when it's just him and us, it breaks my heart that he won't get along with the others because it means he has less time with us is he has to be seperated from them :(
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I contacted someone from TTouch and have had amazing results, you wouldn't believe the difference in him Kelly he is so much calmer and happier, it's the best money I've ever spent ;)
Things arnt totally solved here and I'm still working with him and wont give up on him, I'm so much happier with how things are here and so is Blue ;)
I'd recommend TTouch to anybody, I wasn't into all this massage thing but after seeing the results and after just a week there was a huge difference!
HTH Kelly, I know what a worrying time you must be going through.
Glad someone else has had good results with TTouch (am always recommending it so its good to get feedback).
Kelly have contacted my TTouch/rescue friend re the contact I gave you, plus there's one a little closer but she isn't as highly qualified as the one I originally sent you (have asked re her as well).
Wilf is going through this challenging phase as well but he knows he can't try it on with madam Ruby so makes his presence felt outside the house (have had to apologise to sooooo many people, and most thankfully see that he's just exerting himself on their poor dog because of his age). I know with him he's just going through that phase and can avoid most situations.
Good luck with it all
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I'm so sorry to hear this Kelly, it must be awful for you, trying to keep the peace.
Like Emma says it is possible he is hormonal, and trying to make his presence felt.
Wasn't Ollie a rescue dog? maybe that has something to do with his behavour.
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Hi Kelly
So very sorry to hear about your problems.
Sasha was a lot like you have described Ollie. She was very possesive with her toys and especially her chews. She also used to regularly attack Scully for no apparent reason at all although she was fine with the cats. She also used to attack several other dogs on the island too to the point where the vet advised me to only take her out with a muzzle on. It was heartbreaking.
I lost Sasha at the age of almost 3. She had a huge amount of health problems - epilepsy, spinal problems and a neurological problem. However she also suffered from rage syndrome which didn't respond to any treatments either a behaviourist or the vet could give.
I am not suggesting Ollie has any of the problems Sash had but it may be worth considering a trip to the vet to be sure there's no medical underlying cause to his recent problems. We believe (rightly or wrongly :unsure: ) that the neurological problem that Sash had was partly or wholy responsible for her behaviour.
I hope you resolve this soon. Having two fighting dogs in one house is a nightmare that I couldn't wish on anyone. Let us know how you get on and pm me anytime you want to talk :)
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I do sympathise Kelly as I've been having the same problems with Vegas for a while now. I've got him on a flower remedy from a holistic pet supply store which definitely seems to help. I'm also going to have to contact a behaviourist in the next couple of weeks. Its difficult to pinpoint excatly what makes Vegas turn but it can be if hes on the sofa with a toy and one of the dogs walk past, he will jump off snarling and pin them to the ground but won't actually bite. If given things like rawhide chews, he won't eat them, instead he chooses to sit in his bed and guard them and then none of the dogs can get past him. So they are a no-no now :rolleyes: I really hope you can get it sorted soon - it is so tiring sometimes :( Like Ollie, his temperament with people hasn't changed - he's still a cuddle monster ;)
Can someone pm me some links to TTouch - I'm at the stage where I'll give anything a go.
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here you go Gill
http://www.ttouchtteam.co.uk/ (http://www.ttouchtteam.co.uk/)
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Gill TTouch is really good so worth a try. When I saw friends male cockers going through adolescence they were an absolute nightmare, really over the top loutish behaviour (and prayed mine wouldn't do the same). They would often jump on other dogs and behave as you describe, but in time they all went through this and were fine without any intervention (and are quite calm now). Wilf (neutered at 8 months) does this but he's not as bad as my friends dogs were, still unacceptable but I just work on the recall so he comes back before he starts (its only with dogs he feels who are less confident than him such as a poor collie who he pinned down the other week and I had to drag him off). However I see him behaving the same with 2 of his contemporaries, but they can be rougher than him so its not a problem (and I realise that he just wants to be like this with everyone but is sometimes picking on the wrong ones). Personally I don't think he knows how to behave with other dogs at the moment.
I must admit having worked with my dog trainer on 1-2-1s with Ruby and her moods has helped dealing with Wilf in understanding what I'm dealing with.
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Hi Kelly,
As Penny knows, after an initial good start, Jack our second rescue has been challenging Tia a lot. They always have bloody fights if it goes that far, and I was getting very worried about it.
I'm glad to say that over the past couple of weeks (since the school hols - more people around for attention) things have been lots better, and he is getting starting to get the hang of everything too. He came to us apparently not trained at all - even wee's in the house and no commands that he understood. He's responding well at the moment to us, and is calmer with Tia.
I am going to book up training asap as I want our situation to continue to improve.
Penny has been extremely helpful and patient with my moans and worries, so thanks Penny for that.
Fighting dogs really get you down Kelly, and I do sympathise with you and hope that the TTouch will change things for you.
Happy New Year,
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Hi Kelly, my TTouch friend says this about the person I suggested to you: 'Marie is great and very sympathetic - she would be the ideal person to see'
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Hi Kelly,
As Penny knows, after an initial good start, Jack our second rescue has been challenging Tia a lot. They always have bloody fights if it goes that far, and I was getting very worried about it.
I'm glad to say that over the past couple of weeks (since the school hols - more people around for attention) things have been lots better, and he is getting starting to get the hang of everything too. He came to us apparently not trained at all - even wee's in the house and no commands that he understood. He's responding well at the moment to us, and is calmer with Tia.
I am going to book up training asap as I want our situation to continue to improve.
Penny has been extremely helpful and patient with my moans and worries, so thanks Penny for that.
Fighting dogs really get you down Kelly, and I do sympathise with you and hope that the TTouch will change things for you.
Happy New Year,
Having met Jack and Tia on Monday, I have to say you are doing a marvelous job with him and hes a very lucky boy to have you as his new mum :)
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I have contacted Marie Miller :) Hoping she can help us now...had a horrible episode earlier where he attacked Millie's foot and left her with a cut on her paw :( She is okay now but it wasn't nice.
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Its difficult to pinpoint excatly what makes Vegas turn but it can be if hes on the sofa with a toy and one of the dogs walk past, he will jump off snarling and pin them to the ground but won't actually bite. If given things like rawhide chews, he won't eat them, instead he chooses to sit in his bed and guard them and then none of the dogs can get past him. So they are a no-no now :rolleyes: I really hope you can get it sorted soon - it is so tiring sometimes :( Like Ollie, his temperament with people hasn't changed - he's still a cuddle monster ;)
Can someone pm me some links to TTouch - I'm at the stage where I'll give anything a go.
Cleo is just like this too.
Likes to guard things. Only supervised chews and things in our house too.
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:( Aw sorry to hear some of you are having problems. I hope the TTouch works for you.
Cocker hugs from us xxx
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Kelly I hope you get things sorted out soon I think the TT is a great idea keep us posted ;)
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These stories have surprised me a lot and saddened me; it must be so tough when your doggies don't get on :(
In my mind I had always 'assumed' that Molo would have a brother or sister eventually; but your experiences have made me consider this carefully; perhaps cockers are happier on the whole as 'only' dogs?
I hope that TTouch and the other therapies and approaches help all the dogs learn to live together more harmoniously :unsure:
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These stories have surprised me a lot and saddened me; it must be so tough when your doggies don't get on :(
In my mind I had always 'assumed' that Molo would have a brother or sister eventually; but your experiences have made me consider this carefully; perhaps cockers are happier on the whole as 'only' dogs?
I hope that TTouch and the other therapies and approaches help all the dogs learn to live together more harmoniously :unsure:
I don't think you can really say that as cockers do like other doggy company.
I have no problems with my two together at all (never have) as you'll find with a lot of people on this board, in fact Ruby's life has been enriched with Wilf in it (because Wilf knows where he is in the pack, Ruby's boss and he knows it). The only times I have had problems is when the odd foster stays and that would've been solvable in time but I knew he was going to a new home anyway (Rocky cocker now lives with another cocker and a springer and gets on really well with both of them and Sue has never had any problems at all, in fact Rocky's in love with her springer girl Lily).
Sometimes people have hiccups in the relationships with their dogs for whatever reason (that can also include us being at fault), which can be dealt with with time and patience and may be a little outside help.
Mary's problem stems from an adult rescue settling in, and there's often teething problems with rescues adjusting, but as she's found while its been hard she's working through it, and I know she'll get there in the end.
My problem (and I use the word very lightly as its more of an irritation really) just stems from Wilf exerting himself outside the house as he goes through his lager lout phase, which is dealt with pretty well (he just likes to keep me on my toes really).
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Hi,
Caroline - thanks for your kind words. :D
Penny - I agree that we will get there with Jack. It is early days - we have only had him 8 weeks out of his 8 years, and I think his change in lifestyle has been hard on him. :(
Before we got Jack I read lots of posts here about dogs that got on well - including rescues. I really hope that no-one will be put off giving rescues a chance. I know not all the dogs mentioned on this thread are rescues - sorry probably being over sensitive now.
We're meeting our trainer on 12th - I'll pass on any good thoughts she has.
Good luck everyone!
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Rachel (not Caroline :wacko: ) , I wouldn't let that put you off having a playmate for Molo if you realy want one. Cockers are very sociable dogs and although I know Morgan has always been happy here - he's been king of the house and centre of attention since day one :rolleyes: - he's even happier since we got Cooper. They are firm friends and I can honestly say that that in the 11 months since we got Cooper they have never had one falling out and that's two males ;) . They play, eat and sleep together with no problems - it's the best thing I've ever done! :D
I really do sympathise with everyone who is having problems and hope that the Ttouch or other training methods will be successful :)
EDITED 'cos I gave Molo a new owner without Rachel's permission - duh! :lol:
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EDITED 'cos I gave Molo a new owner without Caroline's permission - duh! :lol:
:o
Or mine! Sorry Caroline, you can't have him :lol:
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Rachel - there are no guarantees that two or more dogs will get on or won't. It's the luck of the draw. With hindsight my Jasper would have been much easier and happier as an only child - he hates the competition from Buddy. Only you can decide if you should or couldn't have another when the time is right - but there are lots of things you can do that I wish I'd been more aware of/open to. When you think the time is right - go into it then - don't make your decision now ;)
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The confusion I've caused here :rolleyes: !!!
I meant to type that I'd given Molo to Caroline without Rachel's permission :wacko: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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don't make your decision now ;)
Definitely not....this thread has made me realise that there is a lot more to consider than I thought :unsure:
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don't make your decision now ;)
Definitely not....this thread has made me realise that there is a lot more to consider than I thought :unsure:
Its a very big decision, and I often pine for another ickle cocker for Indie to play with, but I am scared of it spoiling her, so for now she will remain the one and only :lol: When the time is right, I will get another but I will get a male, I don't want to take any chance with the same sex thing! Just want to point out as well, I don't think the problem only affects cockers think it goes for most breeds :rolleyes:
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I don't agree with "the same sex thing" I think it totally depends on the dogs individual personalities. I had Saffy and Tilly together for 5 years until Saf died, and now have 3 bitches together with absolutely no problems whatsoever. I also know plenty of people who have dogs living together with no probs.
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The most I have had living together are two canines - to put three, four or more together and I think you have to start thinking 'pack' because the hierarchy can start off with one dog as top dog, and then change, for reasons known only to your dogs .....
You have chosen to have a small 'pack' and you should be informed about how their canid behaviour can vary and fluctuate ...
To interfere is often to crucially rupture their relationship, and very small things to us humans can mean very big deals to dogs !!
If their quarrelling seems unfathomable to you, then please go and see a canine behaviouralist since they can unravel your doggies little brains like no-one else can!!
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I'm not sure it's related to the "small pack" thing...because the girls have never been aggressive or assertive so Toby was definitely the top dog (if you go by top dog theories)...I think this problem would have occured if I only had Toby too because the problem started off as aggression towards Toby and then escalated.
We have a behaviourist from the rescue Ollie came from due to come out and see them, and we are also going to try TTouch with Ollie. I agree that this needs outside help now. Someone with more knowledge needs to see the problem first hand and advise us on how to handle it.
Thanks so much everyone for your support!
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hope it all works out well,,i,m sure it will,,sorry to hear you are having these problems hun,,keep smiling it will work itself out,,i,m sure,,good luck sweety,xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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I don't agree with "the same sex thing" I think it totally depends on the dogs individual personalities. I had Saffy and Tilly together for 5 years until Saf died, and now have 3 bitches together with absolutely no problems whatsoever. I also know plenty of people who have dogs living together with no probs.
Ive had always had two bitches together with no problems, the only time they grumbled, was when one had more space in the bed :rolleyes: i just left them to sort themselves out. :D If i do get another dog, i will definatly get another girl :D
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I have five bitches all related. We have had problems with one of them. Similar to what others here have described. I saw a behaviourist with all of them who said 'what do you expect when you have a pack of dogs'. He did also say which made sense with mine that although we thought she was top dog because she was the bossy one who always got her own way she actually wasn't and our quiet older bitch was. He said that this is why there was a problem because she thought she had to try and be top dog and always challenge the older bitch and the others, although she was not suited to being top dog. After alot of hard work and re training with her and me she is alot better and happier. :) At times I thought we were not getting anywhere with her and often thought that it might get to the stage where she would have to be rehomed by herself, which was obviously upsetting, but I am glad we have carried on with her when we see how different she is now.
Good luck and I am sure you will conquer this given time and alot of hard work> :)
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:) I have two girls who live together quite happily, except for a few growls when food is about! When I got Daisy she came from the same breeder as Georgie and she was very helpful in advising me. She said that Daisy would be a good balance for Georgie and she was right. Both are absolutely lovely, but different in their ways. Georgie is very hyper and Daisy is very laid back and they compliment each other really well. I appreciate that they do not always come from the same place or may come from a rescue, but if anyone has had their first from a breeder, then she/he is probably the best person to take advice from when looking for their second dog :) x
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We've go two bitches both spayed both the same age give a couple of weeks but diff breeds a cocker and a westie) and they only argue over toys or food. However in the 15 months we have had them they have only had 2 major rows where biting etc was involved - over rawhide - so no more rawhide in this house lol :D
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He did also say which made sense with mine that although we thought she was top dog because she was the bossy one who always got her own way she actually wasn't and our quiet older bitch was. He said that this is why there was a problem because she thought she had to try and be top dog and always challenge the older bitch and the others, although she was not suited to being top dog. After alot of hard work and re training with her and me she is alot better and happier. :)
I might be way off mark but I think this is part of the problem I have with Vegas. A few people have commented that he wasn't like that when Brook was alive - Brook was most certainly top dog. I'm now wondering if he isn't at all happy with being top dog which could be causing him some anxiety :unsure: The problem we then have is that there isn't another dog to elevate to that status - Dallas would have a nervous breakdown if he had that kind of responsibility and Disney is just a pup. Maybe once Disney matures the situation will change.
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Awww Poor Vegas :wub: give him a big (((hug))) from me Gill.
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About the same sex thing....
When I had both Sasha and Scully there were two bitches under my roof. They fought like you wouldn't believe, and Scully was always the loser. She constantly had bleeding ears from Sash's attacks and the experience left her with a BIG dislike for most other dogs.
When we decided the time was right to get another dog we not only went for another breed (Oscar's a lab) but also for a male. Apart from a few grumbles they get on really well.
Partly I think this is because Oscar is so much bigger than Scully and partly because he's male. I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that Oscar has the friendliest personality of any dog I've ever known. What will happen when he hits teenage-time though I don't know.
I do know that I wouldn't have dared get another bitch whilst we still have Scully - once bitten twice shy :(
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We've had some input now from behaviourists/TTouch people and things are slowly improving :) I am feeling a bit more positive about things now, and I feel like I am closer to Ollie again because I don't feel so stressed about the dynamics between them.
They still have their moments and there are still some fights but at least things are improving.
I was speaking to a behaviourist about the same sex thing, and he said that he doesn't really think it's as much of an issue as people believe. He gets as many referrals from people having trouble with opposite sex dogs fighting as he does from same-sex dog families apparently. However, he said that dogs close in age and similar in status can often cause problems, and that problems with two bitches can be more complicated than with two males.
I see them more as squabbling siblings than anything more sinister now. They are remarkably similar to my two sons :lol:
Ollie is being castrated in a couple of weeks, from what I've been told that may not make much difference to the friction between them, but on the plus side it is unlikely to worsen the situation.
Hope other people who posted are having an easier time of it now too?
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Glad its getting better Kelly. I also think the more relaxed we become the better we're able to deal with them (but easier said than done I know when you're tearing your hair out for the umpteenth time).
I decided to get a male dog becuase I thought Ruby would be a nightmare with another bitch but as it turns out I know now she would've been fine. I think the only time Wilf wanted to fight in the house with Rocky was more about getting my attention and suddenly finding himself in a position where he was automatically bottom of the pile.
A few of us off dp from South Wales are trying to get booked on a TTouch workshop now at Tilley Farm (I'll be taking madam Ruby with me!).
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Kelly I am really happy to hear that things are improving for you all :) Hopefully with all the hard work you are putting in and the light at the end of the tunnel - things will move from strength to strength very quickly now!!
Sibling rivalry - doesnt it just keep paracetamol in business!! :rolleyes: :lol:
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Hi Kelly,
You asked way back on 23rd Jan if other people's doggie fights were improving. Sorry for late reply to the question, but I've also had a problem with my son - as in he crashed my PC - again :angry: :angry:
On the +ve - Jack's getting better and better with recall, and in general his behaviour is good, but on the -ve, they have had the two worst fight ever two days ago, and another smaller one this morning. Jack starting it and Tia finishing it as usual, but both of them damaged. Each time they were locked together mouth to mouth. :o
The vet, as others do, looked at them being well behaved, next to each other and said it was hard to believe they weren't best friends. He too voiced my concern about potential damage to Tia's eye (she only has one...), but agreed that it was still early days, and thought that after another 3 months things would be better again.
The trainer said I should try lots of on and off lead with him and wants to come to walk with us in the local park to see if she can spot anything. Most of their fights are outdoors, and at the point of one of them having a lead on or off.
The clicker is doing well with his human interactions, but his dog social skills are very poor! I've ordered the book that Penny had spotted to see if the clicker can also help with his doggie skills.
Ho hum,