Author Topic: Help! What is cocker rage????  (Read 8223 times)

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Offline wayo47

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 09:21:16 AM »
Thank you all for your advice and thank you Elaine as with so many others your advice was very much appreciated.
We are now a lot clearer on this and am more informed. I am still on the search for my perfect pup and I know a lot of people who know me think I've gone spaniel mad! :005:

Offline 8 Hairy Feet

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 10:15:32 AM »
I know a lot of people who know me think I've gone spaniel mad! :005:
^ Tee hee this is right and proper and
the only way to be....
I'm steff and I'm a cockerholic :005:

Offline Helly D

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 05:19:50 PM »
If you have had a cocker with rage then you will certainly know about it. I rescued a 20 month old red bitch in 1978 and she would bite for no reason at all. In fact she would come to you for a fuss then turn on you without warning. Her behaviour became worse the older she got and she was a liability as people would automatically gravitate towards her as she looked so appealing. We had to keep a line on her in the house as if anyone tried to stop her from doing anything she shouldn't she would turn on them.

She bit me badly on one occasion and I ended up having to go to hospital so I made the very difficult decision to have her PTS at age four. I'd always loved the solids but it put me off having another one so we had a blue roan in 1985 who was as soft as butter. I'd always loved the blacks so we had one in 1998 who also had a superb temperament. Rage certainly existed and it's easy to say it didn't if you have never had the experience of living with a dog with it.

Thankfully it has been bred out of the breed but the vet I used to work for in the late 70's and 80's had dealings with some of the cockers who were producing pups with this problem. Some of the well known kennels in those times were guilty of in-breeding. Sadly some people will still label all solids as potential for trouble but thankfully there are plenty of good breeders out there who breed for type and temperament. Just need to track them down.

Offline Murphys Law

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 05:29:50 PM »
If you have had a cocker with rage then you will certainly know about it. I rescued a 20 month old red bitch in 1978 and she would bite for no reason at all. In fact she would come to you for a fuss then turn on you without warning. Her behaviour became worse the older she got and she was a liability as people would automatically gravitate towards her as she looked so appealing. We had to keep a line on her in the house as if anyone tried to stop her from doing anything she shouldn't she would turn on them.

She bit me badly on one occasion and I ended up having to go to hospital so I made the very difficult decision to have her PTS at age four. I'd always loved the solids but it put me off having another one so we had a blue roan in 1985 who was as soft as butter. I'd always loved the blacks so we had one in 1998 who also had a superb temperament. Rage certainly existed and it's easy to say it didn't if you have never had the experience of living with a dog with it.

Thankfully it has been bred out of the breed but the vet I used to work for in the late 70's and 80's had dealings with some of the cockers who were producing pups with this problem. Some of the well known kennels in those times were guilty of in-breeding. Sadly some people will still label all solids as potential for trouble but thankfully there are plenty of good breeders out there who breed for type and temperament. Just need to track them down.

To me, that doesn't describe what I believe to be cocker rage.


Offline Cockertime Blues

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2013, 06:46:08 PM »
If you have had a cocker with rage then you will certainly know about it. I rescued a 20 month old red bitch in 1978 and she would bite for no reason at all. In fact she would come to you for a fuss then turn on you without warning. Her behaviour became worse the older she got and she was a liability as people would automatically gravitate towards her as she looked so appealing. We had to keep a line on her in the house as if anyone tried to stop her from doing anything she shouldn't she would turn on them.

We too had a rescue cocker (black) from age 11 months onwards who fits your description of your dog.  We "managed" her for 5 years and sadly had to make the decision to have her put to sleep as she got progressively worse.  However, I am positive she did NOT have cocker rage.  From what I understand rage presents in a totally different manner.

Offline ruby n millies mum

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2013, 08:23:18 PM »
 hi, like most i have heard of "Cocker Rage",never experienced it

i had a black cocker when i was younger ,he was the greatest dog, loved being involved in all the kids games and would stand for anything we did to him, including being dressed i all sorts of outfits.

i now have two girls , one red and white and one lemon roan, both great temperament ,

cockers are very social dogs love being with people so my advice like most of the post ...do your home work....buy from a reputable breeder..make sure that it gets plenty of exerciser to burn off the energy....train your dog to respect your rules...enjoy

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2013, 09:41:28 PM »
Help!
Can someone explain cocker rage? We are looking for a pup and have been chatting to various people and everyone seems to have an opinion on what colour we should go for?
Some say the solid colours are prone to this?? >:( to be honest I have never heard of anything so daft?? Or am I being naive?
Help!!!!!!

I did my degree dissertation on coat colour and aggression in cocker spaniels from which I concluded that it is probably  not coat colour to blame in most cases of aggression but selective breeding for appearance.
Solid show cockers showed slightly higher instances of aggression than parti's but when introducing working cockers into the studied population with the same colour genetics that had been bred for working ability and temperament there was no higher instances of aggression in solids.
Having dabbled in the show world in a different breed it does sadden me that some folks overlook temperament when selecting dogs to breed from, but it does happen.
In saying this i have no intention to tar all breeders with the same brush but my experience does back up the findings of my study.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline williamsmum

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2013, 09:45:54 PM »
Rage syndrome is awful, and truly terrifying. I had my cocker, Jasper, from a pup, and my big old GSD, Max, loved him to bits and was absolutely wonderful with him. However, seeing this young cocker pinning Max up against the wall whilst going for his throat time and time again, left me with no alternative than to have him PTS. It was the saddest thing I have ever done. However, if it had been a young child that Jasper had attacked so frighteningly, I have no doubt that it would have been badly mauled, or worse, and that is a risk that no responsible person can take. I have to say that it did not put me off having another cocker. William is now almost eleven, and Twiggy, my rescue, is seven. No problems with either of them, thank goodness, apart from William has turned into a bit of a grumpy old gent, but I think that at his age, he can be forgiven.  :005:

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2013, 09:51:33 PM »
Help!
Can someone explain cocker rage? We are looking for a pup and have been chatting to various people and everyone seems to have an opinion on what colour we should go for?
Some say the solid colours are prone to this?? >:( to be honest I have never heard of anything so daft?? Or am I being naive?
Help!!!!!!

I did my degree dissertation on coat colour and aggression in cocker spaniels from which I concluded that it is probably  not coat colour to blame in most cases of aggression but selective breeding for appearance.
Solid show cockers showed slightly higher instances of aggression than parti's but when introducing working cockers into the studied population with the same colour genetics that had been bred for working ability and temperament there was no higher instances of aggression in solids.
Having dabbled in the show world in a different breed it does sadden me that some folks overlook temperament when selecting dogs to breed from, but it does happen.
In saying this i have no intention to tar all breeders with the same brush but my experience does back up the findings of my study.

Some of my findings

It was found when comparing working cockers with show cockers in regard to aggression that a significant association between show cockers and aggression existed in five out of the ten situations listed in table one (shown on page thirteen). In situations A2, (where objects are taken away), A3, (when touched by any person), A4, (where objects are taken away), A5, (where food was taken away) and A7, (where cockers on lead interacted with other strange dogs) we can accept hypothesis one “that a significant association exists between show cocker spaniels and aggression” and a significant difference exists between show cockers and their working relations. Whilst in situation’s A1, A6, A8, A9, and A 10 we must accept the null hypothesis that there is no significant association between show cocker spaniels and aggression.
 One possible reason for the difference between the two strains are the changes that have taken place culturally in the last century, where selection and use of dogs has led to many of the dogs practical function being diminished and subjective breeding for appearance replacing  selection for working traits(Lindsay 2000). Even over a short number of generations it is realistic to assume that this change in breeding strategy has affected traits of emotion and temperament, such as aggression or fear and these could have been altered by the pressures of artificial selection (Scott and Fuller, 1965). It is also possible that possible differing lifestyles, of the working cocker and domestic show cocker play a part in why a difference exists between the two strains in regard to aggression, however the popularity of the working cocker spaniel bred originally for the shooting field is on the increase as a domestic pet, so it would be useful to re examine this relationship further in future years to see if there has been any further shift in behaviour.
7.3 Aggression in relation to solid and parti-coloured dogs
Aggression in relation to coat colour in the cocker spaniel has previously been studied by Podberscek and Serpell, (1996) who found that solid colour cocker spaniels were significantly more aggressive in twelve out of thirteen situations tested. This study also looked at instances of aggression in relation to coat colour but unlike Podberscek and Serpell, (1996) the results were not as clear cut. The findings of this study agreed with those of Vage et al. (2008), who found a shift towards solid colour cockers and aggression although it was not consistent.  A major limitation of the Podberscek and Serpell study is that it looked only at the show strain for results, despite the fact that the same colour coat genetics is present in the working strain also.
 This study found that when only show strain cocker spaniels were tested, solid colour dogs were significantly likely to display aggressive behaviour in five out of the ten situations included in the questionnaire, this enabled the acceptance of hypothesis two for show strain cocker spaniels  (that there is a significant association with solid colour dogs and aggressive behaviour) in situations A1, (having been verbally chastised by any person), A3, (if touched by any person), A4, (when objects were taken away), A5, (if food is taken away), Situation A9, (towards other family pets or members of its social group).
However in situation A2, A6, A7, A8, and A10 we must accept the null hypothesis (that there is no significant association between solid colour cocker spaniels and aggression).
Situations in which solid show cockers were more likely to show aggression however agree to an extent with the findings of Podberscek and Serpell, (1996) and Mugford (1984), with instances of aggression more likely directed towards people including the owner or immediate family and often involving resource holding potential. Owner directed aggression in the past has been labeled as dominant which as highlighted in the review of literature is a term often wrongly applied when relating to social interactions. (Bradshaw et al., 2009), also suggested that agonistic behaviour labeled as dominant in nature is more aligned with associative learning combined with subjective resource value.
According to Aloff, (2005) all too often owners do not recognize warnings given by the dog, which combined with often inappropriate rank reduction solutions to unwanted behaviour often performed badly result in a lack of trust between the dog and owner. this can lead to further guarding of resources and  owner directed aggression (Appleby 2010).
Unlike Podberscek and Serpell (1996), this study did look at both strains of the breed, and very interestingly the results of the analysis of show dogs only contrasted greatly with the results of the analysis when both working and show strain dogs were tested together for aggression in the same ten situations. When the strains were tested together, the solid colours showed a significant association with aggression in just one of the ten situations. So when testing the breed as a whole, hypotheses two, (that there is a significant association with solid colour dogs and aggressive behaviour) can be accepted in situation A9, (towards other family pets or members of the dog’s social group) only.
The null hypotheses must be accepted in situations A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, and A10.
Although aggression was only significant in one situation, the results point  to a degree of aggression directed towards immediate family which was in agreement with the findings of Vage et al., (2008) who stated to a large extent the growling, biting, and snapping observed in their study was directed toward family members.
The fact that the different strains showed differing results when tested together and then separately suggests something other than coat colour was responsible for the aggressive behaviour as all colours were well represented across the two strains. Mugford (1984) suggested that observations from owners as well as breeders showed aggression tended to be related with specific breeding lines, signifying a strong genetic element.
 

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline cockers rock!

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2013, 12:37:21 PM »
I read this with an extremely heavy heart

My 4.5 year old entire male golden does not have rage but over the last 18 months he has been getting far more aggressive and I am really having a tough time with him.  I consider myself reasonably dog savvy we had springers growing up and they were well behaved and loving.  I've had him since 8 weeks and worked very hard socialising him as a pup he interacted with young, old, wheelchair users and he used to come up to Central London with me on the train and the tube and walking through heavy crowds in Covent Garden.  He was bombproof I thought!

It started with him springing and snarling at other dogs in the park and the majority of this was entirely unprovoked. He does not resource guard (food or possessions) at all as he has been trained to wait for his food and in fact this area of his behaviour is excellent I can pick food out while he is eating!

It seems to be a sort of dominance thing but I don't really understand it at all as again he respects boundaries in some areas. He began growling at us (my elderly mother and I) a year or so ago.  He bit me, a year ago, on the arm but I blamed myself as I had been pulling him by the collar and felt I had crossed a boundary with him.  He bit my mother when she was trying to put some eye drops in and his behaviour was so bad that we abandoned putting in the eye drops.  He has lots of attention (we are at home most of the day) and is well exercised and fed.

Last night I was playing on the floor with him - we rough house play and he always loved this before when suddenly I heard a fearsome snarl and he launched at me biting my upper arm shoulder- I felt him come at me twice - biting once and coming in for a second bite.  I had on a very thick fleece and have a graze wound and huge bruises but it did not puncture the skin.  He had a clear escape route and could have run away if he was unhappy but he attacked me.  My mother was watching and said it looked as though he was going to hang on to my arm as I stood up.  I was so astounded as it did not feel I was crossing a boundary with him as he previously loved this sort of play.

It hurt and with the pain and sadness I was crying a lot and he just ran away and hid behind a sofa and did not come out.  That is another thing that worries me - he never  seemed to get upset when he did  something naughty and he is not empathetic - if either of us are upset or worried he moves away rather than nearer. I cried most of last night as I have started to feel I will need to let him go. 

I have spoken to a behaviourist and frankly did not feel it was that helpful as all I got out of it was information about setting boundaries - most of which I do anyway!  He has been checked over by a vet and he is physically in excellent shape.

As a comment to the original poster I obtained my dog from a breeder  in Wales and saw the parents.  After bringing him home  I had cause for concern about health issues and I certainly would not recommend most of the breeders in Wales from what I have discovered through research. Unfortunately I found out some very worrying things about the breeder I obtained the pup from!  Unlike many breeders he lets other people breed from his dogs with the result that many people have bred litters for extra money around this area and they are not responsible breeders. 

There were four in my dog's litter and the breeder had two litters close together which at the time did not seem suspicious.  I was probably a bit naïve here!   His male sibling lives locally and according to people I see in the park he is never walked off the lead and also seems to have become less friendly but as this is anecdotal I don't know enough to consider whether there really is a genetic problem.  I met the parents when I selected my pup  and the father was brilliant but the mother worried me at the time as although not aggressive she did not interact but I overlooked  this as I though it might be because she had just whelped!

Sorry for the long rambling post but in a bad place right now





Offline wayo47

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2013, 12:52:57 PM »
I read this with an extremely heavy heart

My 4.5 year old entire male golden does not have rage but over the last 18 months he has been getting far more aggressive and I am really having a tough time with him.  I consider myself reasonably dog savvy we had springers growing up and they were well behaved and loving.  I've had him since 8 weeks and worked very hard socialising him as a pup he interacted with young, old, wheelchair users and he used to come up to Central London with me on the train and the tube and walking through heavy crowds in Covent Garden.  He was bombproof I thought!

It started with him springing and snarling at other dogs in the park and the majority of this was entirely unprovoked. He does not resource guard (food or possessions) at all as he has been trained to wait for his food and in fact this area of his behaviour is excellent I can pick food out while he is eating!

It seems to be a sort of dominance thing but I don't really understand it at all as again he respects boundaries in some areas. He began growling at us (my elderly mother and I) a year or so ago.  He bit me, a year ago, on the arm but I blamed myself as I had been pulling him by the collar and felt I had crossed a boundary with him.  He bit my mother when she was trying to put some eye drops in and his behaviour was so bad that we abandoned putting in the eye drops.  He has lots of attention (we are at home most of the day) and is well exercised and fed.

Last night I was playing on the floor with him - we rough house play and he always loved this before when suddenly I heard a fearsome snarl and he launched at me biting my upper arm shoulder- I felt him come at me twice - biting once and coming in for a second bite.  I had on a very thick fleece and have a graze wound and huge bruises but it did not puncture the skin.  He had a clear escape route and could have run away if he was unhappy but he attacked me.  My mother was watching and said it looked as though he was going to hang on to my arm as I stood up.  I was so astounded as it did not feel I was crossing a boundary with him as he previously loved this sort of play.

It hurt and with the pain and sadness I was crying a lot and he just ran away and hid behind a sofa and did not come out.  That is another thing that worries me - he never  seemed to get upset when he did  something naughty and he is not empathetic - if either of us are upset or worried he moves away rather than nearer. I cried most of last night as I have started to feel I will need to let him go. 

I have spoken to a behaviourist and frankly did not feel it was that helpful as all I got out of it was information about setting boundaries - most of which I do anyway!  He has been checked over by a vet and he is physically in excellent shape.

As a comment to the original poster I obtained my dog from a breeder  in Wales and saw the parents.  After bringing him home  I had cause for concern about health issues and I certainly would not recommend most of the breeders in Wales from what I have discovered through research. Unfortunately I found out some very worrying things about the breeder I obtained the pup from!  Unlike many breeders he lets other people breed from his dogs with the result that many people have bred litters for extra money around this area and they are not responsible breeders. 

There were four in my dog's litter and the breeder had two litters close together which at the time did not seem suspicious.  I was probably a bit naïve here!   His male sibling lives locally and according to people I see in the park he is never walked off the lead and also seems to have become less friendly but as this is anecdotal I don't know enough to consider whether there really is a genetic problem.  I met the parents when I selected my pup  and the father was brilliant but the mother worried me at the time as although not aggressive she did not interact but I overlooked  this as I though it might be because she had just whelped!

Sorry for the long rambling post but in a bad place right now

Hi
I am really sorry and can't imagine what you are going through but if u want to pm me as we live in wales and am currently researching breeders, we also have had a bad experience of a pup that we had to pts at 15 weeks due to being naive possibly, it's so hard to do the right thing.





Offline Top Barks

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2013, 01:04:08 PM »
I read this with an extremely heavy heart

My 4.5 year old entire male golden does not have rage but over the last 18 months he has been getting far more aggressive and I am really having a tough time with him.  I consider myself reasonably dog savvy we had springers growing up and they were well behaved and loving.  I've had him since 8 weeks and worked very hard socialising him as a pup he interacted with young, old, wheelchair users and he used to come up to Central London with me on the train and the tube and walking through heavy crowds in Covent Garden.  He was bombproof I thought!

It started with him springing and snarling at other dogs in the park and the majority of this was entirely unprovoked. He does not resource guard (food or possessions) at all as he has been trained to wait for his food and in fact this area of his behaviour is excellent I can pick food out while he is eating!

It seems to be a sort of dominance thing but I don't really understand it at all as again he respects boundaries in some areas. He began growling at us (my elderly mother and I) a year or so ago.  He bit me, a year ago, on the arm but I blamed myself as I had been pulling him by the collar and felt I had crossed a boundary with him.  He bit my mother when she was trying to put some eye drops in and his behaviour was so bad that we abandoned putting in the eye drops.  He has lots of attention (we are at home most of the day) and is well exercised and fed.

Last night I was playing on the floor with him - we rough house play and he always loved this before when suddenly I heard a fearsome snarl and he launched at me biting my upper arm shoulder- I felt him come at me twice - biting once and coming in for a second bite.  I had on a very thick fleece and have a graze wound and huge bruises but it did not puncture the skin.  He had a clear escape route and could have run away if he was unhappy but he attacked me.  My mother was watching and said it looked as though he was going to hang on to my arm as I stood up.  I was so astounded as it did not feel I was crossing a boundary with him as he previously loved this sort of play.

It hurt and with the pain and sadness I was crying a lot and he just ran away and hid behind a sofa and did not come out.  That is another thing that worries me - he never  seemed to get upset when he did  something naughty and he is not empathetic - if either of us are upset or worried he moves away rather than nearer. I cried most of last night as I have started to feel I will need to let him go. 

I have spoken to a behaviourist and frankly did not feel it was that helpful as all I got out of it was information about setting boundaries - most of which I do anyway!  He has been checked over by a vet and he is physically in excellent shape.

As a comment to the original poster I obtained my dog from a breeder  in Wales and saw the parents.  After bringing him home  I had cause for concern about health issues and I certainly would not recommend most of the breeders in Wales from what I have discovered through research. Unfortunately I found out some very worrying things about the breeder I obtained the pup from!  Unlike many breeders he lets other people breed from his dogs with the result that many people have bred litters for extra money around this area and they are not responsible breeders. 

There were four in my dog's litter and the breeder had two litters close together which at the time did not seem suspicious.  I was probably a bit naïve here!   His male sibling lives locally and according to people I see in the park he is never walked off the lead and also seems to have become less friendly but as this is anecdotal I don't know enough to consider whether there really is a genetic problem.  I met the parents when I selected my pup  and the father was brilliant but the mother worried me at the time as although not aggressive she did not interact but I overlooked  this as I though it might be because she had just whelped!

Sorry for the long rambling post but in a bad place right now






Doesn't sound like you have a dominant dog, but rather a fearful one who bites when feeling threatened. Do you mind me asking who was the behaviour adviser you saw and what was their advice?

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline LurcherGirl

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2013, 04:08:50 PM »
Same impression and questions as TopBarks. Also, have any health checks been done, especially also his thyroid (comprehensive test, check Jean Dodds on google to read up on it).
Vera Marney
BSc (Hons) Canine Behaviour and Training, APDT UK
www.wtdt.co.uk and www.wtdt-eastanglia.co.uk

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Re: Help! What is cocker rage????
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2013, 04:29:26 PM »
He been to the Vet for general examination

Thanks for the thyroid tip I will look at this.

Yes agree it is fear and following some more advice from TB I am going to see what else to do.