Archie bitten daughter again - out of options

[CrazyCockerGang]

I have a child and dogs. God forbid one bit my child, but if it did it would not get a second chance, or a third!! If you can't protect your children from the 'family' dog it needs to be delt with, harsh as it may be! One bite is an accident letting it carry on is unforgivable and shouldn't happen. What ever the reason, what ever avenues of training have or haven't been taken you don't let your child within 100ft of a dog that's bitten anyone! (Or use them as testers to see if trainings worked)

[Archie bean]

Sounds like he needed more training as a youngster (throwing the towel in re crate training, due to noise, mess etc) I can only imagine how subsequent training went! He isn't a family dog! He is a dog that cannot be trusted at this point around your family! Why push the situation, you may be with him in the areas he's aloud but it's made no difference to the biting incidents or they wouldn't of occurred!
If you wAnt him to sleep in a room with your children I'd put a long line on him so he can't reach them at any point or muzzle. If he bites the wrong person he will be PTS and I really doubt it's his fault.

I'm sorry but I think your posts are incredibly harsh and insensitive. This lady is obviously trying her best to find a solution and really does not deserve this kind of comment, for those of us who have followed the posts, we do know the problems she has had with Archie. I realise of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there is no real need to be quite so hard If you are interested you will find the original thread interesting, in Behaviour and Training it is titled 'I may be losing Archie' it outlines Archie's problems more fully and the actions that the O.P has tried to remedy the situation.

Yes, I'm afraid coming in on this thread alone really doesn't give you the full story. Do check out Geordietykes previous posts. She was incredibly unlucky with her previous cocker Odie and then has had a really traumatic time from day one with Archie. She has worked tirelessly to help sort out his (many) issues. It is extremely sad it has come to this situation but sometimes there is only one way out. As the owner of a dog who has bitten me in the past I know what it's like to face this problem. I was lucky because I don't have kids, (but I teach other people's children in my home). Until you have lived with this situation it is impossible to understand or give advice on how it should be handled.

[Panda]

Ok enough now, one poster's comments are extremely harsh and dare I say very rude and judgemental. People come on here to share problems and to get constructive advice not to be verbally slaughtered, this is not what this forum is about.

I have read all Geordietyke's posts with interest as my boy can be extremely wilful- he went through a biting phase (luckily for us, it did seem to be a phase - he had guarding issues) when he was younger and it was incredibly stressful and upsetting and I don't have kids - I cannot imagine how you must be feeling but you have all of my sympathies.

I remember all your posts about Odie and my heart went out to you then as it does now.

[CrazyCockerGang]

Sounds like he needed more training as a youngster (throwing the towel in re crate training, due to noise, mess etc) I can only imagine how subsequent training went! He isn't a family dog! He is a dog that cannot be trusted at this point around your family! Why push the situation, you may be with him in the areas he's aloud but it's made no difference to the biting incidents or they wouldn't of occurred!
If you wAnt him to sleep in a room with your children I'd put a long line on him so he can't reach them at any point or muzzle. If he bites the wrong person he will be PTS and I really doubt it's his fault.

I'm sorry but I think your posts are incredibly harsh and insensitive. This lady is obviously trying her best to find a solution and really does not deserve this kind of comment, for those of us who have followed the posts, we do know the problems she has had with Archie. I realise of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there is no real need to be quite so hard If you are interested you will find the original thread interesting, in Behaviour and Training it is titled 'I may be losing Archie' it outlines Archie's problems more fully and the actions that the O.P has tried to remedy the situation.

Yes, I'm afraid coming in on this thread alone really doesn't give you the full story. Do check out Geordietykes previous posts. She was incredibly unlucky with her previous cocker Odie and then has had a really traumatic time from day one with Archie. She has worked tirelessly to help sort out his (many) issues. It is extremely sad it has come to this situation but sometimes there is only one way out. As the owner of a dog who has bitten me in the past I know what it's like to face this problem. I was lucky because I don't have kids, (but I teach other people's children in my home). Until you have lived with this situation it is impossible to understand or give advice on how it should be handled.

Do you allow your dog and the children you teach in the same room? Knowing he's bitten you previously? I very much doubt it. Why take the risk!
I don't think my posts are at all harsh, children have been bitten, the parents are responsible for putting them in a situation where that has been aloud to happen on more than one occasion, regardless of the past, they must take full responsibility. If you don't know the cause or the triggers or reason you do not allow the two in the same room how ever hard that maybe! I really do hope he finds a suitable home, I would contact every cocker rescue in the UK, each region will have one, even if you have to travel to the other end of the country it will be worth it.

[Penelope]

Sorry Crazycockergang but I also think your comments are harsh and un-necessary.
Do you honestly believe that someone on here with such a long history of trying to resolve their dog's problems has not tried every thing they can?
Do you honestly think GeordieTyke would even consider the PTS option if there was any other hope?

I just hope you never have any issues that you need support, advice and help with on here - perhaps your dogs are perfect and have no issues whatsoever?

My heart totally goes out to Geordietyke and having been in a very similar situation many years ago and knowing what is ahead of her, there is no way I would say anything that is not supportive to her.

She came on here for help, advice and support - not to be ridiculed or her methods questioned.

[Ben's mum]

Well said Penny 

So sorry things have not improved with Archie, I know I suggested it before, but Top Barks would still be my first port of call, he isn't that far from you, we travelled to see him and it was so worth it. He also has experience of cockers that have bitten.
  I know you have been working with a behaviourist, but all the going through doorways first and not getting on the settee sounds a bit like some of the older methods of making youself pack leader,  and I know ideas have changed so much

  for you all and hoping you can find something to help

[CrazyCockerGang]

'I have to admit, when it happened the second time, I just wanted him out of the house and gone.  Hubby seems to think it can be managed/cured but at what cost.....'

I personally think the above sums it up after reading all the threads, less time on forums and more time out stimulating/training/games/walking/ even as a family.

I won't post any more and hope he finds the right home.

[Archie bean]

Sounds like he needed more training as a youngster (throwing the towel in re crate training, due to noise, mess etc) I can only imagine how subsequent training went! He isn't a family dog! He is a dog that cannot be trusted at this point around your family! Why push the situation, you may be with him in the areas he's aloud but it's made no difference to the biting incidents or they wouldn't of occurred!
If you wAnt him to sleep in a room with your children I'd put a long line on him so he can't reach them at any point or muzzle. If he bites the wrong person he will be PTS and I really doubt it's his fault.

I'm sorry but I think your posts are incredibly harsh and insensitive. This lady is obviously trying her best to find a solution and really does not deserve this kind of comment, for those of us who have followed the posts, we do know the problems she has had with Archie. I realise of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there is no real need to be quite so hard If you are interested you will find the original thread interesting, in Behaviour and Training it is titled 'I may be losing Archie' it outlines Archie's problems more fully and the actions that the O.P has tried to remedy the situation.

Yes, I'm afraid coming in on this thread alone really doesn't give you the full story. Do check out Geordietykes previous posts. She was incredibly unlucky with her previous cocker Odie and then has had a really traumatic time from day one with Archie. She has worked tirelessly to help sort out his (many) issues. It is extremely sad it has come to this situation but sometimes there is only one way out. As the owner of a dog who has bitten me in the past I know what it's like to face this problem. I was lucky because I don't have kids, (but I teach other people's children in my home). Until you have lived with this situation it is impossible to understand or give advice on how it should be handled.

Do you allow your dog and the children you teach in the same room? Knowing he's bitten you previously? I very much doubt it. Why take the risk!
I don't think my posts are at all harsh, children have been bitten, the parents are responsible for putting them in a situation where that has been aloud to happen on more than one occasion, regardless of the past, they must take full responsibility. If you don't know the cause or the triggers or reason you do not allow the two in the same room how ever hard that maybe! I really do hope he finds a suitable home, I would contact every cocker rescue in the UK, each region will have one, even if you have to travel to the other end of the country it will be worth it.

Yes I do. His guarding behaviour is now managed. I've been lucky, like I said. But I know what to look for and the environment is controlled. There are no triggers present and no risk. If I hadn't been able to get to this point then I would have had to re-home him. Feel free to read my earliest posts too as my Archie's history is also there. Before you ask, yes all my pupils and their parents know his history. I offer the option of shutting him out of the room and none of them have taken up that offer.
I'm sorry, but yes, your comments are unnecessarily harsh and unhelpful.

Now let's move on to offering support where it's needed.

[lescef]

I fully support you too.
 Archie sounds like an easily aroused dog who finds it hard to fit in with family life. Everything most of us do in life is done with the best of intentions and you have done your utmost, but the temperament of the dog must also be considered and over which you have little control.
Dogs and a young family is really hard work and there is never enough time to do everything we would like.
Thinking about you
Lesley

[chrisp]

I really feel for you.  It's really difficult when you have worked so hard.  Sounds like he needs a quiet, child free and dog free home. 

[wendall]

I'm sorry I can't remember if you have looked into his diet, co Utd it be something in his feed that could be sending him haywire! Like E numbers with kids! Oh, and ignore the very rude comments that have been posted by someone who obviously doesn't know the whole story. Sending my love and support. Xx Wendy

[Geordietyke]

Thank you my cyber friends 

You know, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't sometimes.  I'd have been lambasted and criticised by some if I'd just thrown in the towel at the beginning and thought "what the heck, lets just get rid of him now without trying anything".  Instead, I've tried every product out there to try and calm him down, been following a trainer's plan and had him physically checked at the vets.  We live behind gates, in an abnormal family life situation, which frankly can't be helping Archie's state of mind one bit and it's sure as heck not enhancing my children's lives.  It would be an impossibility to keep them separated permanently - he would have to live in a crate and the kids would not be allowed in two of the main rooms in the house (living room or kitchen, where he is currently allowed) 

And by the way, he has 2 or 3 daily walks, does clicker and recall training and we play fetch/find games in our garden.  As for the crack about "spending too much time on forums", COL has been a great source of help and support over the past 5 years and things would definitely have turned out very different had I not had various advice from here.

Re. diet - he has been on Millies Wolfheart since January and he is thriving on it.  Previous to this, I'd tried various good quality and not so good, to find one that suited, most he lost weight on, his output was frequent, large and smelly which seemed to indicate he wasn't gaining anything nutritionally. 

My breeder believes he needs a much lower protein food (less than 20%) as 24% is too high and will cause these aggressive and hyper behaviours??  However, all the food out there with this amount of protein seems to have lots of rubbish and fillers in.   Anyone care to comment on this claim?

[Jaysmumagain]

Lesley - I am so very sorry to read this news.  Please take heart that you have given so much devotion to Archie and those of us who have followed this closely are totally aware of this.  No one has done more to secure a way forward with Archie.

I am saddened to read some comments, as I know from the experience I shared with you how difficult my own situation was with my westie, but there were no children involved.

I had hoped the trainer could have helped with Archie.  I am saddened to read of Caesar.  Can you approach the vet again - saying how serious it has become. I just wonder if there is somewhere, we went to see a cocker in a rescue and he was wonderful with OH and the manager came along and told us they were looking for a male owner because of the dog's issues etc.  I will send name if you wish.

Whatever happens remember you have a strong support network here and I am like others here for you.

take care Julie

[Mudmagnets]

Just a quick one on  food suggestions - have you considered Burns at all, their kibble is 18% is hypoallergenic so does not contain all the nasties you want to avoid. You can get 2kg bags that will give you 40 meals so enough to see if he likes it...I guess that depends how much you feed per day though

http://burnspet.co.uk/products/burns-for-dogs/burns-lamb-brown-rice-dog-food.html

hope this helps

[Pearly]

Well said Penny 

So sorry things have not improved with Archie, I know I suggested it before, but Top Barks would still be my first port of call, he isn't that far from you, we travelled to see him and it was so worth it. He also has experience of cockers that have bitten.
  I know you have been working with a behaviourist, but all the going through doorways first and not getting on the settee sounds a bit like some of the older methods of making youself pack leader,  and I know ideas have changed so much

  for you all and hoping you can find something to help

Not getting on furniture and waiting at doorways etc has nothing to do with the pack theory! It is simple manners plus setting boundaries and rules to be enforced by the household so that Archie can start to work within, it should give him some consistency and clarity in what is expected of him and take away any self imposed responsibility he's given himself - it should let him be a dog  . Stopping the dog leaving the house before you or at a gate while out walking is also safer....you get to see what is the other side before they go through possibly into a field of sheep or just as a cat ambles past outside (although in his house they don't tend to do that any more  )

Geordietyke, I know you have worked really hard with Archie and you want the best quality food for him but sometimes that just doesn't suit and while the "poorer quality" foods do have fillers etc it may be worth exploring a lower protein food of it's going to help him.  Stuff what others think to the brand, if it suits Arhie and helps him calm down it's worth a go - possibly longer term you can move him onto something better 

I'd still have a chat to the Vet about other options, as I said before, a Vet won't put down a healthy dog without good reason.

Jayne
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