looking for a puppy, genetics help

[plangton]

Hi all, hope you are well.
I have made one post regarding what potential sex i should get, i also have found two breeders.
I've been doing some research on the cockerspanieldatabase site and have discovered Coefficient Of Inbreeding/Ancestor loss coefficient.
As i'm new to the breed i have found it all a little confusing and hope you all can help me. I looked up both the sire and dam and found the following.
 
 The first breeder
Sire has a score of: Coefficient Of Inbreeding (COI): 16.22% Ancestor loss coefficient (AVK): 23%.
HD:6/3 = 9,EyeTest:unaffected,EyeTest Info:GB BVA GPRA/CPRA,EyeTest Date:20-11-2014,Gonio:unaffected,FN:clear b.p.,GPRA:clear 

Dam has a score of: Coefficient Of Inbreeding (COI): 4.68%  Ancestor loss coefficient (AVK): 30.6%
FN:clear b.p. 

Both entered into the kc Mating Inbreeding Coefficient Prediction, and  got the following.  Any puppies from this mating would have a coefficient value of 8.5%


The second breeder

Sire has a score of:Coefficient Of Inbreeding (COI): 3.13% Ancestor loss coefficient (AVK): 34.4%
Gonio:unaffected FN:clear GPRA:clear 

Dam has a score of Coefficient Of Inbreeding (COI): 3% Ancestor loss coefficient (AVK): 51.7%
FN:clear

Both entered into the kc Mating Inbreeding Coefficient Prediction, and got the following. Any puppies from this mating would have a coefficient value of 0.2%

its quite a lot of info, but if any of you could help and guide me, it would be greatly appreciated

[MIN]

Sorry, that is all gobble de gook to me . I understand to some people it is very important.  My Gemma was a rescue so no history what so ever and she is perfectly sound .  Remember , as Forest Gump taught us all, Life is a box of chocolates, you never know what you will get.  Perfect healthy  genetics is still no guarantee to a full healthy life 

[Mudmagnets]

Sorry, that is all gobble de gook to me . I understand to some people it is very important.  My Gemma was a rescue so no history what so ever and she is perfectly sound .  Remember , as Forest Gump taught us all, Life is a box of chocolates, you never know what you will get.  Perfect healthy  genetics is still no guarantee to a full healthy life 

Same here, I know what end needs feeding and what end needs cleaning, that's about it, mine are all happy and healthy, and so I'm content

Good luck with your research and search.

[Holly Berry]

The best chance you have of getting a puppy that goes on to have a healthy life, although life doesn't come with any guarantees is to buy from a reputable breeder, who not only breeds healthy puppies but dogs with a sound temperamental background.

There are three main health issues, retinal atrophy ( PRA, pcrd PRA)familial nephropothy  (FN) and hip displacia. If you have the Kennel Club no's of the sire and dam then you can check to see their results. Any dogs not tested or results not recent I would avoid. If a breeder is unable or not willing to give you info on testing then go somewhere else.

I'm not an expert on health issues, but I would be looking for parents who have clear results for PRA etc and FN and a low hip score, I believe the median figure for Cockers is less than 10. I would also be looking for a breeder who doesn't have a lot of litters per year. Most reputable breeders only breed for puppies to show and not purely as a business, so go to a few cocker shows and get talking to them.

Check out the Cocker Spaniel Club website, where there is a section on health. Look to see if they are on the accredited breeder scheme on the Kennel Club.

[plangton]

One of the breeders is breading for the first time, I know that neither the sire or dam have hip test.

The other breeder will bread for show. The sire has a low hip score and and is also tested for the above including glaucoma. The dam is only tested for fn and  pra.

Nit quite sure what so do. Should I be looking at the Coefficient Of Inbreeding as well?.

[Holly Berry]

TBH I've not heard of the coefficient of inbreeding. I assume it shows how often an individual dog has been used in the puppy's lines? Every pedigree I've had has to some degree shown the same dog or dam used back in the generations, it would depend on the frequency and how close the relations.

As I said there is no guarantees, all you can do is investigate as much as you can and satisfy yourself that the breeder is mainly concerned with producing healthy puppies of good temperament and they have been given the best start to life.

Personally any I had doubts about I would walk away, before you see the puppies, because once you've seen them and something is not right, you may feel the urge to rescue them

I would also ask the 1st time breeder why they were breeding, and how they've gained their knowledge. People who genuinely have the welfare of their dogs at heart expect questions and will also ask you lots too.

[tenaille]

The coefficient of inbreeding should be kept low in order to give a puppy the best chance of a healthy life, the higher the figure then the more inbreeding has occurred back in its lines. Its not an absolute of what will happen in your puppys life but does indicate the risks. Our dogs will always suffer from some historic inbreeding, after all thats largely how they got the characteristics they have, but a trend of a few popular stud dogs siring more pups can bring a breed to a bit of a genetic bottleneck.
My own chosen pup is a field spaniel, very similar to a cocker spaniel, and is a breed at risk due to low numbers. The coefficient of inbreeding is higher than in cockers, and  breeders very carefully choose from available dogs to bring it down within the limits of whats possible with a small gene pool. Always select a breeder that breeds for temperament and health not just breed conformation. Look for a large litter of chunky lively pups, thats always a good sign. There has been discussion on here previously about the subject, and the Kennel Clubs breed health surveys are an eye opener and well worth reading.
In the end there's a lot of luck involved, but try to give yourself the best chance and follow your instincts.

[Jaysmumagain]

Tenaille understands thank goodness cause I haven't a clue


I think I would really look to kennel club assured breeders and ask how often they breed or litters bitch had, and load yourself up with the questions that you want the answers to.  Although I am sure it still will have some errors, the nicest looking show cocker around me is a breeder old bitch that a retired lady took on the dog is a stunner, but I was shocked when she told be how many litters she had, since then I believe the limit has been lowered.

Julie

[daw]

Of course look for a puppy with all the usual health checks BUT, sorry, whatever some breeders tell you CoI is vitally important. There is a simple rule for CoI and that's the lower the better. The best is zero.  The average for cockers is 9.6% BUT for working cockers you'll find it is much higher because of the small gene pool.    You'll struggle to find a working cocker with a score  less than 10%. That's the point beyond which genetics predicts a variety of things: lower fertility, smaller puppies and litter sizes and most important for a puppy buyer 'a general loss of vigour'. In other words, cells are less good at fighting off infections and eventually mutation: hence the instances of early onset cancers now being seen.

You'll find people who'll tell you they've a dog with a CoI of 30% that's happy and healthy. All I can say to that is there are people who've survived extraordinary things including atomic bombs. It's all about making the safest bet you can. To give yourself and your puppy the best chance of a long and happy life get the lowest CoI you can find. Much more important than colour, sex, and number of show champions in its ancestry. Good luck. 

My OH and I have done a year-long study of inbreeding in cockers in particular after losing ours. If I can give you any more information I'd be happy to.   

[Snoopy]

There's so much more to buying a new puppy than the COI, but that's not to say it should be ignored completely.....inbreeding is something I'd avoid but line breeding is something else and is very often carried out by breeders, this is where the results of the COI should be taken into account.

You should be ensuring the puppy is clear for FN and no more than a carrier if not clear for Prcd-PRA if you were to go on to breed with a carrier it's essential to have her tested prior to choosing your stud boy, if your not going to breed her, carrier status is fine.

Hip scores are not essential but if you know the parents and ancestors scores are low all the better, but I've found its usually stud dogs hip scored, not so often bitches. 

Gonioscopy tests are also sometimes carried out and is also worth checking - as I understand it gonioscopy testing is on the KC Assured breeder recommendations only and not a must do.

Believe nothing you hear and only half what you see! Always check KC health test results yourself to be sure....

Of course this is only my opinion and other posters opinions may and probably will differ ...

[daw]

There's so much more to buying a new puppy than the COI, but that's not to say it should be ignored completely.....inbreeding is something I'd avoid but line breeding is something else and is very often carried out by breeders, this is where the results of the COI should be taken into account.

There's no scientific difference between 'inbreeding' and 'line breeding' - except marketing! Most breeders would have trouble selling puppies advertised as 'the result of generations of deliberate incest'...and I suspect many buyers would think Yuk! and look elsewhere. Quite reasonably once you realise the outcome can be much the same.    The health tests I've and others have mentioned are necessary (I'd also add AON) but these are only the damaging genes that can be tested for at the moment. There are maybe hundreds or possibly thousands of small genetic changes that are doubled up in an inbred (or 'line bred' dog) that will compromise its future welfare.     

[tenaille]

I think we have to accept that at the moment things are as they are and will not change quickly, although change it surely will.
There is so much information available now, particularly online, to everyone who is interested.
Much good advice given given about choosing a puppy and Plangton is asking the right questions. Its all a lottery so minimise the risks as described and use head over heart, although we all know that ultimately the puppy will choose you !
Best of luck and enjoy him or her when he comes home.

[Snoopy]

There's so much more to buying a new puppy than the COI, but that's not to say it should be ignored completely.....inbreeding is something I'd avoid but line breeding is something else and is very often carried out by breeders, this is where the results of the COI should be taken into account.

There's no scientific difference between 'inbreeding' and 'line breeding' - except marketing! Most breeders would have trouble selling puppies advertised as 'the result of generations of deliberate incest'...and I suspect many buyers would think Yuk! and look elsewhere. Quite reasonably once you realise the outcome can be much the same.    The health tests I've and others have mentioned are necessary (I'd also add AON) but these are only the damaging genes that can be tested for at the moment. There are maybe hundreds or possibly thousands of small genetic changes that are doubled up in an inbred (or 'line bred' dog) that will compromise its future welfare.     

There may not be a scientific difference but there is an ethical one.

Inbreeding to me is close relatives....line breeding is more distant ones 

One I'm willing to accept and one I'm not 

[Helen]

There's so much more to buying a new puppy than the COI, but that's not to say it should be ignored completely.....inbreeding is something I'd avoid but line breeding is something else and is very often carried out by breeders, this is where the results of the COI should be taken into account.

There's no scientific difference between 'inbreeding' and 'line breeding' - except marketing! Most breeders would have trouble selling puppies advertised as 'the result of generations of deliberate incest'...and I suspect many buyers would think Yuk! and look elsewhere. Quite reasonably once you realise the outcome can be much the same.    The health tests I've and others have mentioned are necessary (I'd also add AON) but these are only the damaging genes that can be tested for at the moment. There are maybe hundreds or possibly thousands of small genetic changes that are doubled up in an inbred (or 'line bred' dog) that will compromise its future welfare.     

There may not be a scientific difference but there is an ethical one.

Inbreeding to me is close relatives....line breeding is more distant ones 

One I'm willing to accept and one I'm not 

absolutely.    I am curious Daw - can you tell me how many others in that allegedly badly bred litter you purchased your sadly deceased dog from are actually still alive and well?  Or is it horribly bad luck that yours was the only one that has since died at a young age?  I'm not sure what it died from or what the genetic link was but since it is mentioned every single time there is a thread on puppies I'm sure you'd like to enlighten us fully so we can understand your concerns.

[daw]

'It' as you so kindly refer to the boy we lost suffered from an unusual carcinoma. I'm sorry you have a problem with my referring to my own experience of spaniel ownership. I thought that's what this forum was for. I've really no wish to respond to the tone of your comments. They probably say more than I could. I'm happy to engage in a discussion of the science with you- and have offered to before. But you seem to wish to revert to a belief in fate. Fine.

As for risks that people are willing to take when buying a puppy this is exactly my point. It's the puppy that takes the risk. Once you've had a dog die prematurely - and dreadfully- and understand that all this was preventable, you have a different view.

And to be honest, if you don't what can anyone say?