citronella collars

[bmthmark]

I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing.  Written by a former Police Officer it made a lot of sense, but.....

Citronella collars were the ultimate in last resort and cannot be used just as a collar.  His method (assuming the previous suggestions had failed) was to rub raw lemon into the gums of the dog, leaving the lemon pith (not zest) for as long as possible - this involved two people holding the dog and forcing the lemon into its mouth.  It will be an unbearable amount of flavour scent and one the dog will not want to repeat.  As I said before, this is (in his opinion) the last resort.  The collar is then used, sparingly, to stop a behaviour by reinforcing the scent at at time a command is given.  The principle is that the horrible taste / smell is not worth the self reward of chasing.

My view on this?  The collar has a value and purpose but only when every other avenue/method has been exhausted and that it must be used properly.  To use a citronella collar without putting the effort in is not only irresponsible but very likely to induce long term behavioural issues not to mention downright cruel on the dog. As Bizzylizzy points out a dogs nose (and taste buds) are thousands of times stronger/better than ours and would you like pungent lemon scent forced up your nose?

Leave it to the professionals and put in the hard work and effort to train the dog properly.  Coral eats poo.  She does it for attention and especially at my house where the garden is smaller.  At OHs we don't give her the opportunity to do it, it's cleared up immediately and she has space to burn off energy.

I would suggest your friend knows nothing about training a dog and is just plain lazy - I doubt a vet would have recommended it, more likely a discussion took place and it was an option.  Your friend ought to seek professional help from a positive trainer who can help with a "leave it" command - it's a viscious circle: dog eats poo, gets worms, eats more poo as it's hungry.  A good quality food, possibly with a mineral supplement and training would be a better solution in this instance 

I think your post is spot on and interesting to read about the police officer. I'm surprised to read that raw lemon is rubbed in to the gums, but I suppose the police officer was fully trained and knows what he is doing, my friend on the other hand has no idea.
I totally agree that my friend is just plain lazy and I too have doubts whether the vet would of recommended this. She did say that the dog eats poo, they get rid of the worms, then eats poo again and gets worms again. I will have a speak to her when I see her next and mention maybe changing the food and try and convince her that the 'Leave' command could be used. Also what I have to do with my 8 month old cocker is simply scan the area ahead and try and avoid things.

[ips]

I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing.  Written by a former Police Officer it made a lot of sense, but.....

Citronella collars were the ultimate in last resort and cannot be used just as a collar.  His method (assuming the previous suggestions had failed) was to rub raw lemon into the gums of the dog, leaving the lemon pith (not zest) for as long as possible - this involved two people holding the dog and forcing the lemon into its mouth.  It will be an unbearable amount of flavour scent and one the dog will not want to repeat.  As I said before, this is (in his opinion) the last resort.  The collar is then used, sparingly, to stop a behaviour by reinforcing the scent at at time a command is given.  The principle is that the horrible taste / smell is not worth the self reward of chasing.

My view on this?  The collar has a value and purpose but only when every other avenue/method has been exhausted and that it must be used properly.  To use a citronella collar without putting the effort in is not only irresponsible but very likely to induce long term behavioural issues not to mention downright cruel on the dog. As Bizzylizzy points out a dogs nose (and taste buds) are thousands of times stronger/better than ours and would you like pungent lemon scent forced up your nose?

Leave it to the professionals and put in the hard work and effort to train the dog properly.  Coral eats poo.  She does it for attention and especially at my house where the garden is smaller.  At OHs we don't give her the opportunity to do it, it's cleared up immediately and she has space to burn off energy.

I would suggest your friend knows nothing about training a dog and is just plain lazy - I doubt a vet would have recommended it, more likely a discussion took place and it was an option.  Your friend ought to seek professional help from a positive trainer who can help with a "leave it" command - it's a viscious circle: dog eats poo, gets worms, eats more poo as it's hungry.  A good quality food, possibly with a mineral supplement and training would be a better solution in this instance 

Don't like the sound of that technique one bit. My view is that many"aversive" methods are either carried out as a fast track fix due to time restraints or merely a symptom of a failure by the trainer. If you have a reliable stop and leave command then many if not most problems can be avoided.

[bmthmark]

I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing.  Written by a former Police Officer it made a lot of sense, but.....

Citronella collars were the ultimate in last resort and cannot be used just as a collar.  His method (assuming the previous suggestions had failed) was to rub raw lemon into the gums of the dog, leaving the lemon pith (not zest) for as long as possible - this involved two people holding the dog and forcing the lemon into its mouth.  It will be an unbearable amount of flavour scent and one the dog will not want to repeat.  As I said before, this is (in his opinion) the last resort.  The collar is then used, sparingly, to stop a behaviour by reinforcing the scent at at time a command is given.  The principle is that the horrible taste / smell is not worth the self reward of chasing.

My view on this?  The collar has a value and purpose but only when every other avenue/method has been exhausted and that it must be used properly.  To use a citronella collar without putting the effort in is not only irresponsible but very likely to induce long term behavioural issues not to mention downright cruel on the dog. As Bizzylizzy points out a dogs nose (and taste buds) are thousands of times stronger/better than ours and would you like pungent lemon scent forced up your nose?

Leave it to the professionals and put in the hard work and effort to train the dog properly.  Coral eats poo.  She does it for attention and especially at my house where the garden is smaller.  At OHs we don't give her the opportunity to do it, it's cleared up immediately and she has space to burn off energy.

I would suggest your friend knows nothing about training a dog and is just plain lazy - I doubt a vet would have recommended it, more likely a discussion took place and it was an option.  Your friend ought to seek professional help from a positive trainer who can help with a "leave it" command - it's a viscious circle: dog eats poo, gets worms, eats more poo as it's hungry.  A good quality food, possibly with a mineral supplement and training would be a better solution in this instance 

Don't like the sound of that technique one bit. My view is that many"aversive" methods are either carried out as a fast track fix due to time restraints or merely a symptom of a failure by the trainer. If you have a reliable stop and leave command then many if not most problems can be avoided.

I was surprised to hear that 2 people hold the dog and force lemon in the mouth. I know they are qualified police trainers but to me its cruel. Not sure what the trainers would do if 2 people pinned them down and forced lemon in there mouths, not sure they would be happy. It must be horrible to watch as the poor dog probably has no idea what is going on.
I much prefer the 'leave' command and a treat when he does what I say method. I'm sure my dog prefers that method as well.

[Emilyoliver]

I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing. 

I was surprised to hear that 2 people hold the dog and force lemon in the mouth. I know they are qualified police trainers but to me its cruel. Not sure what the trainers would do if 2 people pinned them down and forced lemon in there mouths, not sure they would be happy. It must be horrible to watch as the poor dog probably has no idea what is going on.
I much prefer the 'leave' command and a treat when he does what I say method. I'm sure my dog prefers that method as well.

That situation was very specific and used as a last resort 'to stop chasing'.  Something very different to treat training a simple leave.  It may sound a bit violent and extreme - but dogs that chase and have developed a habit of doing so are a risk both to themselves as well as livestock and very often the public (traffic) as well.  The other options are the e-collar, never being let off the lead or euthanasia.  If given an option, I'd go with the lemon on gums/citronella collar method if it meant my dog could be 'cured' and have a decent life.  But that is a totally different scenario to stopping a dog eating poo.

[Londongirl]

I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing. 

I was surprised to hear that 2 people hold the dog and force lemon in the mouth. I know they are qualified police trainers but to me its cruel. Not sure what the trainers would do if 2 people pinned them down and forced lemon in there mouths, not sure they would be happy. It must be horrible to watch as the poor dog probably has no idea what is going on.
I much prefer the 'leave' command and a treat when he does what I say method. I'm sure my dog prefers that method as well.

That situation was very specific and used as a last resort 'to stop chasing'.  Something very different to treat training a simple leave.  It may sound a bit violent and extreme - but dogs that chase and have developed a habit of doing so are a risk both to themselves as well as livestock and very often the public (traffic) as well.  The other options are the e-collar, never being let off the lead or euthanasia.  If given an option, I'd go with the lemon on gums/citronella collar method if it meant my dog could be 'cured' and have a decent life.  But that is a totally different scenario to stopping a dog eating poo.

Despite my consistent efforts, Henry is still prone to chasing. I will never give up trying to train it out of him, but if I never do, and he has to stay on the lead, I'll chose that over pinning him down and rubbing his gums with lemon to 'cure' him. It's not ideal for a spaniel to spend so much time on lead, but I do my best to provide him with the stimulation he would give himself were he to have the freedom to roam. I hope he has a decent life, despite my failings as a handler.

[Pearly]

I read a really good article recently, aimed at stopping a dog from chasing. 

I was surprised to hear that 2 people hold the dog and force lemon in the mouth. I know they are qualified police trainers but to me its cruel. Not sure what the trainers would do if 2 people pinned them down and forced lemon in there mouths, not sure they would be happy. It must be horrible to watch as the poor dog probably has no idea what is going on.
I much prefer the 'leave' command and a treat when he does what I say method. I'm sure my dog prefers that method as well.

That situation was very specific and used as a last resort 'to stop chasing'.  Something very different to treat training a simple leave.  It may sound a bit violent and extreme - but dogs that chase and have developed a habit of doing so are a risk both to themselves as well as livestock and very often the public (traffic) as well.  The other options are the e-collar, never being let off the lead or euthanasia.  If given an option, I'd go with the lemon on gums/citronella collar method if it meant my dog could be 'cured' and have a decent life.  But that is a totally different scenario to stopping a dog eating poo.

Completely agree.

The article (it's a small book) was a good and interesting read.  The writer also said that whatever you do to your dog, you should try on yourself first - and that very bitter lemon is awful, it makes you drool and gag.  The concept is that the dog associates that memory with chasing and is less inclined to do so.....he also goes on to say that over time you need to wean the dog off the collar (doesn't say how) but has proven effective with dogs that have a very high chase instinct.

Coral chases, it's why I read the article.  In her case, I think she's just very slow to grow up and mature.  She was very steady last year proving herself in a pen but then started free hunting when out of range.  I've spent the best part of 8 months with her back on a line and no opportunity to chase - she now tries to chase birds that are 30ft in the air and have the cheek to fly over her garden.....any tips on stopping chasing much appreciated please (not citronella or e-collars thank you)

Jayne

[ips]

I am no expert as you know but my concept with training not to do something is not training her not to do it but training her to do something else instead. The theory that myself and a very experienced friend of mine came to is that working dogs do not like being stopped doing stuff but are receptive to being trained to do something else using the thing you don't want as a cue.
Hope that makes sense.
I devise the break from flush in order to stop her chasing then I moulded the behaviour into a stop / sit to flush. So initially a bird taking flight is not a cue to stop doing what you want (as in chase) but a cue to carry on hunting (chasing) but in the opposite direction. I use a turn whistle a lot rather than a recall theory being that a recall in the dogs mind is a signal that its over where as a turn is a continuation of the hunt for example but were you want it.
If I was in your shoes with a dog that was still chasing birds even after eight months on a line I would try to use every opportunity of getting into birds and train the flush / flight as a cue to hunt the other way "break from flush"
It worked very well for me but as you know I just muddle along and can only go off my own limited experience.

[Emilyoliver]

I am no expert as you know but my concept with training not to do something is not training her not to do it but training her to do something else instead. The theory that myself and a very experienced friend of mine came to is that working dogs do not like being stopped doing stuff but are receptive to being trained to do something else using the thing you don't want as a cue.
Hope that makes sense.
I devise the break from flush in order to stop her chasing then I moulded the behaviour into a stop / sit to flush. So initially a bird taking flight is not a cue to stop doing what you want (as in chase) but a cue to carry on hunting (chasing) but in the opposite direction. I use a turn whistle a lot rather than a recall theory being that a recall in the dogs mind is a signal that its over where as a turn is a continuation of the hunt for example but were you want it.
If I was in your shoes with a dog that was still chasing birds even after eight months on a line I would try to use every opportunity of getting into birds and train the flush / flight as a cue to hunt the other way "break from flush"
It worked very well for me but as you know I just muddle along and can only go off my own limited experience.

ips that makes perfect sense - except when you have a dog seriously hard-wired to hunt and bolt.  Despite very very careful handling and training from the beginning.  I had one of these.  He'd hunt nice and close for about 15-20 seconds.  Then without warning, would bolt.  Screaming.  And would continue to wind himself further into a frenzy oblivious to everything aside from running and hunting for birds.  Tried calming him by concentrating on steadiness exercises, tried food, tried reprimanding him, tried long line, tried shorter hunting sessions, tried stopping hunting.  Took him to 3 pro trainers.  To no avail.  Some dogs are wired that way and there's no undoing it by asking nicely.  As someone said: 'all dogs are easy to train - until you get one that isn't!'

[ips]

I am no expert as you know but my concept with training not to do something is not training her not to do it but training her to do something else instead. The theory that myself and a very experienced friend of mine came to is that working dogs do not like being stopped doing stuff but are receptive to being trained to do something else using the thing you don't want as a cue.
Hope that makes sense.
I devise the break from flush in order to stop her chasing then I moulded the behaviour into a stop / sit to flush. So initially a bird taking flight is not a cue to stop doing what you want (as in chase) but a cue to carry on hunting (chasing) but in the opposite direction. I use a turn whistle a lot rather than a recall theory being that a recall in the dogs mind is a signal that its over where as a turn is a continuation of the hunt for example but were you want it.
If I was in your shoes with a dog that was still chasing birds even after eight months on a line I would try to use every opportunity of getting into birds and train the flush / flight as a cue to hunt the other way "break from flush"
It worked very well for me but as you know I just muddle along and can only go off my own limited experience.

ips that makes perfect sense - except when you have a dog seriously hard-wired to hunt and bolt.  Despite very very careful handling and training from the beginning.  I had one of these.  He'd hunt nice and close for about 15-20 seconds.  Then without warning, would bolt.  Screaming.  And would continue to wind himself further into a frenzy oblivious to everything aside from running and hunting for birds.  Tried calming him by concentrating on steadiness exercises, tried food, tried reprimanding him, tried long line, tried shorter hunting sessions, tried stopping hunting.  Took him to 3 pro trainers.  To no avail.  Some dogs are wired that way and there's no undoing it by asking nicely.  As someone said: 'all dogs are easy to train - until you get one that isn't!'

That's a fair comment. As I say my experience is limited and I always state that fact.
Eze was very excitable when she was younger but she calmed down and seems to be very receptive to training, seems I have been very lucky with mine.
I wonder how much of the problem you encountered with this hard wired dog was / is down to breeding ??
Eze has 34 ftch in her five gen so one would expect her to be quite hot and yet even though in my eyes she is sometimes manic many tell me she isn't, for a cocker 😁

[Londongirl]

I'm with ips on this, for Henry at least. The only way to just stop him chasing without giving him an alternative behaviour would be to make him associate it with something bad. But with consistency I can get him to see a bird on the ground and remember that's a cue to run back towards and then past me, where there will magically be a very tasty something or other on the ground for him to snuffle out. The minute he has eaten his reward and looks at me to see if more is forthcoming, I recall him. As soon as he gets to my feet, I throw a treat away from me. So we set up a yo-yo situation of him running back and forth, but always away from birds on the ground (or flying overhead, which Henry also takes exception to).

As soon as he actually gives chase he goes back on the lead and we do something else, because then his head is gone. And if I don't practice this at least once a day, he forgets it within a week. I don't think 'steady' will ever be a term I'll associate with my doofus of a dog.

[sodpot2000]

Things such as citronella collars and all the rest, up to and including collars that give an electric shock, are all based on (our) assumption that the dog will make the causal link between the act to be stopped and the 'bad thing' happening. There is no evidence that doggie brains work in this way. Hence, the citronella or whatever is just a random 'bolt from the blue'.

If I get fined for speeding then I would be able to link the pain in my wallet to putting my foot on the gas and try to avoid that in the future. If I had no understanding of the concept of speed limits then I would just see that for no particular reason strangers keep stealing money from me when I go out. After a while I would be reluctant to go out.

John Bradshaw's book 'In Defence of Dogs' sets the case out more eloquently than I can.

It is not always a matter of these being a 'lazy' approach, it is that we sometimes assume that our dogs think as we do. That is not always the case

[ips]

I'm with ips on this, for Henry at least. The only way to just stop him chasing without giving him an alternative behaviour would be to make him associate it with something bad. But with consistency I can get him to see a bird on the ground and remember that's a cue to run back towards and then past me, where there will magically be a very tasty something or other on the ground for him to snuffle out. The minute he has eaten his reward and looks at me to see if more is forthcoming, I recall him. As soon as he gets to my feet, I throw a treat away from me. So we set up a yo-yo situation of him running back and forth, but always away from birds on the ground (or flying overhead, which Henry also takes exception to).

As soon as he actually gives chase he goes back on the lead and we do something else, because then his head is gone. And if I don't practice this at least once a day, he forgets it within a week. I don't think 'steady' will ever be a term I'll associate with my doofus of a dog.

You have done brilliantly LG 👍

I suspect that the only reason its not more reliable than it currently is (although as  say you have done great with it) is that unlike myself you have not been in a position to proof it amongst high volumes of birds. That is not to say that eze does not lose her hair from time to time which she does cos they are dogs not robots.

[ips]

Things such as citronella collars and all the rest, up to and including collars that give an electric shock, are all based on (our) assumption that the dog will make the causal link between the act to be stopped and the 'bad thing' happening. There is no evidence that doggie brains work in this way. Hence, the citronella or whatever is just a random 'bolt from the blue'.

If I get fined for speeding then I would be able to link the pain in my wallet to putting my foot on the gas and try to avoid that in the future. If I had no understanding of the concept of speed limits then I would just see that for no particular reason strangers keep stealing money from me when I go out. After a while I would be reluctant to go out.

John Bradshaw's book 'In Defence of Dogs' sets the case out more eloquently than I can.

It is not always a matter of these being a 'lazy' approach, it is that we sometimes assume that our dogs think as we do. That is not always the case

Interesting analogy, and I would add "timing" if you got the money taken off you a month after speeding unless someone was able to explain the reason you would not associate it with that moment in time.
As for aversive / physical correction working. It obviously does not, if it did then no dog would ever need to be scruffed more than once but they do and probably with increasing regularity and increasing force. In my limited experience behaviours which the dog offers due to capturing and shaping become very reliable.

[Emilyoliver]

[quote author=ips link=topic=118760.msg1705714#msg1705714
That's a fair comment. As I say my experience is limited and I always state that fact.
Eze was very excitable when she was younger but she calmed down and seems to be very receptive to training, seems I have been very lucky with mine.
I wonder how much of the problem you encountered with this hard wired dog was / is down to breeding ??
Eze has 34 ftch in her five gen so one would expect her to be quite hot and yet even though in my eyes she is sometimes manic many tell me she isn't, for a cocker 😁
[/quote]
I think you have been lucky with yours - as I have been with mine (first one). 

As for the breeding being a contributory factor - yes, to a degree, very probably.  Very red pedigree with 3 or4 cocker champ winners on both sides.  Every trialling line aside from Argyll Warrior.  The dam line was very strong which is often less common.  However, the sire's owner kept a puppy as did the owner of the dam - and they've turned out trainable at least, with the brother having gained a trialling award last year.  So it's a bit pot-luck as to whether you get the slightly faulty one or not.  To add also - I have an 8 month puppy at the moment who has an all red pedigree from one well-known line rather than a mix of lines, by the sire of the champ winner for 2017.  And he is totally sound.  Very full on.  fast and very hunty.  But able to focus and willing to please.  no extreme training methods required - despite his trialling pedigree.

[ips]

Presumably breeding only increases the chance of getting a good un there are no guarantee. As you say pot luck really.