citronella collars

[bmthmark]

I'm with ips on this, for Henry at least. The only way to just stop him chasing without giving him an alternative behaviour would be to make him associate it with something bad. But with consistency I can get him to see a bird on the ground and remember that's a cue to run back towards and then past me, where there will magically be a very tasty something or other on the ground for him to snuffle out. The minute he has eaten his reward and looks at me to see if more is forthcoming, I recall him. As soon as he gets to my feet, I throw a treat away from me. So we set up a yo-yo situation of him running back and forth, but always away from birds on the ground (or flying overhead, which Henry also takes exception to).

As soon as he actually gives chase he goes back on the lead and we do something else, because then his head is gone. And if I don't practice this at least once a day, he forgets it within a week. I don't think 'steady' will ever be a term I'll associate with my doofus of a dog.

It sounds like you are doing a fantastic job.
I know how hard it is as I have gone back to basics with Jett after his running off incident. So far so good but he is so unpredictable. I'm hoping the incident scared him a little because when I found him he had a very worried look on his face and since then he has been very close to me on walks.

[Emilyoliver]

Presumably breeding only increases the chance of getting a good un there are no guarantee. As you say pot luck really.

That's my take on it.  A decent trialling pedigree at least proves that the stock used have been independently assessed for their working abilities.  And attaining ftch status means that the dog is able to be trained to a very high standard = biddability.  I'd not ever get a cocker with unknown 'pet' lines as then you have no idea what's behind the pups.  and it's more likely that they've not been bred with trainability/ working capabilities in mind.

[hoover]

I do think there is a time and place for them - yes ideally as a last resort and when they can be used appropriately and precisely.

For example, my dog used to find and savagely guard bread that he found in parks - from dogs, adults, toddlers - you name it. We could have dangled a roast chicken in front of him and I doubt he would have left what he was guarding until he had finished eating it all.  On these occasions he was a lawsuit waiting to happen if a young child had happened to wander near him and I imagine it would be quite likely that an order be made to have him put down should the worst case scenario happen. 

So we did do the management - the lead walking and vigilance.  But living his entire life like that would be very hard for him and us all.  Neither could we always be sure of redirecting him to a more positive behaviour - we could not be confident of always spotting trouble ahead and diverting him (he is fantastic at following instructions to hunt to distract him from potential trouble when we spot it, but we can't always spot bread before him).  So we used an aversive method - taking out bread soaked in lemon and hot sauce and dropping it discretely when he wasn't looking.  Then when he found it it tasted disgusting to him and we paired his bad experience with the warnings to 'leave it' and 'be careful'.  Now I'm sure this wasn't pleasant for him, but it certainly worked - he listens to our instructions to leave food now and we are no longer so concerned when out on walks with him.

In serious situations you don't always have time for the long, slow, hopeful fix.  You have to act proportionately to keep others and your dog safe.

[Londongirl]

The thing about your fix, hoover, was that as far as your dog was concerned, no human was involved in inflicting the aversive on him. And it was a very controlled use of an aversive on exactly the behaviour you wanted to control. There was very little chance of the association being wrongly attached to something else. I can entirely understand you using that method in that situation.

What worries me about the lemon-on-the-gums methods was not just the aversive, but the fact that the dog had to be held down by two people while a third administered the lemon. What does that do to a dog's trust in people?

[hoover]

The thing about your fix, hoover, was that as far as your dog was concerned, no human was involved in inflicting the aversive on him. And it was a very controlled use of an aversive on exactly the behaviour you wanted to control. There was very little chance of the association being wrongly attached to something else. I can entirely understand you using that method in that situation.

What worries me about the lemon-on-the-gums methods was not just the aversive, but the fact that the dog had to be held down by two people while a third administered the lemon. What does that do to a dog's trust in people?

I agree, I find that worrying but again, don't know the full circumstances.  If the dog is on the equivalent of death row maybe you do take that step as a last drastic action before putting to sleep?

I wrote the below as you typed your response which ties in with what you're saying about controlled use of aversive:

and as a ps. to the above - I believe the reason that method worked so well was because it was precisely tied to the act we wanted to discourage - the aversive was what was previously the attraction. 

I believe when aversives work less well it is because of imprecision (poor timing of aversive stimulus to behaviour happening), lack of  internal consistency (an aversive stimulus that appears poorly connected to the action happening) and lack of consistency from the owner (failure to apply the aversive in every relevant scenario, or applying it at scenarios that are not strongly enough  related to the one you want to discourage).

...

With the collars I think they can appear to some dogs as being unrelated to human influence - if enough time is left between placing the collar on and then the use of it in an aversive fashion.  Like I say, I don't by any means advocate widespread or general use.

[Pearly]

[quote author=ips link=topic=118760.msg1705714#msg1705714

As for the breeding being a contributory factor - yes, to a degree, very probably.  Very red pedigree with 3 or4 cocker champ winners on both sides.  Every trialling line aside from Argyll Warrior.  The dam line was very strong which is often less common.  However, the sire's owner kept a puppy as did the owner of the dam - and they've turned out trainable at least, with the brother having gained a trialling award last year.  So it's a bit pot-luck as to whether you get the slightly faulty one or not.  To add also - I have an 8 month puppy at the moment who has an all red pedigree from one well-known line rather than a mix of lines, by the sire of the champ winner for 2017.  And he is totally sound.  Very full on.  fast and very hunty.  But able to focus and willing to please.  no extreme training methods required - despite his trialling pedigree.

47 including 5 championship winners and Argyll Warrior.........yes, there is definitely something in the breeding but

This afternoon, on my way out, Coral darted out of the door.  She's usually very good at waiting until she's released, after I've gone through first so I knew she was up to mischief.  By the time I ccould get in a place to see her, she was at the hedge (30m) and in full flight - a robust CORAL LEAVE IT and I saw her falter, COME HERE and she turned 180' still at full pelt and headed back slowing down on the way, which is part of the game "lets see if Mum really means it" the command NOW had her picking up speed and she literally hit my shins as she stopped -  what I omitted to add is that the hedge is full of song birds that had been flushed!

There is hope!  Sorry to overtake this thread but I cannot tell you how happy I am!  Not only that but she's just done a beautiful blind followed by a seen with her sat up at distance, all with pesky song bird distraction and a pheasant sounding off in the background 

Emilyoliver - thank you for your PM will respond in a few minutes x

[ips]

[quote author=ips link=topic=118760.msg1705714#msg1705714

As for the breeding being a contributory factor - yes, to a degree, very probably.  Very red pedigree with 3 or4 cocker champ winners on both sides.  Every trialling line aside from Argyll Warrior.  The dam line was very strong which is often less common.  However, the sire's owner kept a puppy as did the owner of the dam - and they've turned out trainable at least, with the brother having gained a trialling award last year.  So it's a bit pot-luck as to whether you get the slightly faulty one or not.  To add also - I have an 8 month puppy at the moment who has an all red pedigree from one well-known line rather than a mix of lines, by the sire of the champ winner for 2017.  And he is totally sound.  Very full on.  fast and very hunty.  But able to focus and willing to please.  no extreme training methods required - despite his trialling pedigree.

47 including 5 championship winners and Argyll Warrior.........yes, there is definitely something in the breeding but

This afternoon, on my way out, Coral darted out of the door.  She's usually very good at waiting until she's released, after I've gone through first so I knew she was up to mischief.  By the time I ccould get in a place to see her, she was at the hedge (30m) and in full flight - a robust CORAL LEAVE IT and I saw her falter, COME HERE and she turned 180' still at full pelt and headed back slowing down on the way, which is part of the game "lets see if Mum really means it" the command NOW had her picking up speed and she literally hit my shins as she stopped -  what I omitted to add is that the hedge is full of song birds that had been flushed!

There is hope!  Sorry to overtake this thread but I cannot tell you how happy I am!  Not only that but she's just done a beautiful blind followed by a seen with her sat up at distance, all with pesky song bird distraction and a pheasant sounding off in the background 

Emilyoliver - thank you for your PM will respond in a few minutes x

47 wow, you win. 😁

[PennyB]

it doesn't always teach them anything though just not to do something at that moment. When, eg, a dog wears an antibark collar with citronella in it the dog is aware when the device is empty and just barks

[Joules]

Not a fan of them - they are an aversive, and therefore best avoided 

They also do not work - my neighbour used one once to stop her dog barking, and her dog would go and sit in the corner and bark non-stop until the thing rang out of citronella 

[bmthmark]

Not a fan of them - they are an aversive, and therefore best avoided 

They also do not work - my neighbour used one once to stop her dog barking, and her dog would go and sit in the corner and bark non-stop until the thing rang out of citronella 

That is actually a genius dog 

[Guelder Rose]

I will hang my head in shame, and own up to having used a citronella collar in the past.

I tried one of the sonic gadgets, but every time I pressed the button Grace would run around sniffing the floor and then start barking!  It was clear that the sonic gadget encouraged barking in her case!

Grace barks and howls if left alone; I rarely leave her alone because of it - before her heart condition was diagnosed I would leave her for a couple of hours on a Friday afternoon while I went shopping.  Other than that, I would have an evening out once or twice a year.  So most weeks, she would only be alone for two maybe three hours.  I would hasten to add that this routine was only established once she developed the problem - when she was a puppy I did leave her alone as part of her training, but something happened along the way and she developed an issue with being left.

I went out one evening, and didn't get home until gone 11pm which would only happen once or twice a year - but when I got back my neighbour had put a note through my door saying the barking and howling was unacceptable.  To be honest I felt my neighbour was being unreasonable as I honestly only go out late once or twice a year - but we don't get on and they obviously jumped at the chance to complain.  I worry about people poisoning dogs, so once I had this note I felt I had to do something for fear of them throwing poison into the garden if I didn't stop the barking. 

I was advised to get a collar - and it worked - I hated it and Grace hated it - but I was told over and over by more than one person that I was being stupid (I actually felt like I was being bullied at the time for being so silly as they kept on at me that it didn't hurt her).  So, I used the collar when I had to leave her alone - I had CCTV installed and instead of barking and howling she would cry and pace about  

I can promise that I will never use that collar again - and I feel totally ashamed that I ever used it.

I now shop online so I don't need to go to the supermarket anymore.  Any odd items I pick up at the local shop when Grace is with me.  I'm also now looking to find a dog sitter for those times when I have to meet a new client at their premises (I'm self employed and work from home) - I have an appointment for 20th July which will be cancelled as I have not yet found cover.  I have no idea how to solve the problem other than to ensure that Grace is never left alone again.

We are going on holiday in September to Cornwall and I had booked one evening where Grace could not come 'An evening with Rick Stein' - I was going to cancel but the staff at the restaurant put me in touch with one of their dog sitters - so no need to cancel and Grace will be well taken care of for that evening.  The lady said that she would be happy to take care of Grace for another evening as we are there for three weeks so we do have that option.  Thankfully, that part of Cornwall is ultra dog friendly so Grace is welcome wherever we go 99.9% of the time and this will be her third holiday there.

I'm sorry for the long post, but I really do regret ever using that collar on Grace.   

 

[Karma]

No need to hang your head in shame.

When we know better, we do better.  You say you felt bullied into it, and you saw that it didn't solve anything, and you stopped using it.
It sounds like Grace is lucky to have an owner who can admit they made a mistake and take such commitment to make sure that she is given the company she needs.
 

It is possible to train a solution to separation anxiety.  Start with baby steps - give a treat and do some preparations for leaving, but don't actually go.  Then do those preparations, then give the treat.  Then do the preparations, give the treat, open the door and close it again.  Then actually go out the door for a split second.  Gradually build up, but occassionally go back to an earlier step so Grace doesn't feel like it's always getting worse.  It could take months - but as you are so totally prepared to work your life around Grace's needs, you should have good success, as the process relies on not moving on to a higher step until the dog is totally happy with the step you are at.
It might just give you some flexibility in future if anything happens that means you do need to leave her.

But, all in all, you sound like an incredibly devoted owner! 

[Guelder Rose]

Thank you so much Karma - I will definitely try the training you suggest as I hadn't thought about an emergency situation where I have no choice but to leave her! 

[Mudmagnets]

Rick Stein used to have a white JR terrier called Chalky who used to go everywhere with him on his culinary trips. Maybe he had the same challenges.