Author Topic: Jake bit my dad!  (Read 1506 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline C_phillips

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
  • Gender: Male
    • Snappy Spaniel
Jake bit my dad!
« on: July 26, 2017, 02:14:18 PM »
Hello everyone!

It's been a while since I posted on here.On the whole, everything is going really well with Jake (who is now 13 months old).
Training wise he is excellent - he knows a lot of commands + is a joy to walk on the field.

A few months ago I posted about some resource guarding behaviour (to do with his food + chews). I worked through the book 'Mine' and noticed some real improvements with this. We also have implemented a 'Leave it until I say so' policy and many other things + his behaviour with food is now much better and manageable.

Which leads me on to the new problem...

About a month ago we had some friends round and I put Jake to bed. One of them put his fingers through his crate bars and Jake bit him a drew blood. The same thing happened a few nights later, this time to me, when I reached for his water dish (again inside his crate where he was awake). Due to this, guests are now told not to touch Jake in his crate as he seems to be a bit anxious in there (or maybe possessive of his space?). Anway, this is quite manageable.

We went on holiday last week and left Jake with my parents. On one of the days, my Dad had been playing with Jake in the garden. Jake ran in and flopped down on a little dog bed mattress type thing. My dad bent down to tell him what a good boy he was and Jake bit him! Quite hard, and drew blood.

Now after extensive research, this type of problem (I think) can be put down to two sources

1) It's a dominance type thing, whereby Jake is guarding the things that he thinks are his
2) It's an anxiety thing, whereby his space is being invaded so he lashes out

Now I know that dominance theory seems to be much criticsed at the moment. I spoke to one of the top Cocker Spaniel trainers (Ben Randall) who told me the only way to correct this is to assert dominance. Tell him off if he snaps + he even advised shaking a bottle of pebbles at him whenever he does anything like this. This is the complete opposite to other theories however, whereby punishment is never to be used and instead positive training (getting him used to being touched in these places by myself and/or strangers) will get results.


I just wondered if anyone else had any similar experiences with their Spaniels and this touch related / location based snapping? Jake is 13 months and an adolescent, so if anyone has any stories, words of wisdom or reassurance that this will get better Id be much appreciated! My biggest worry is that it esculates, or that he bites a child. I don't want to see my little boy put down :(
Owner of Jake, the fearful-reactive Spaniel.
Read about our journey with Jake:
SnappySpaniel.Wordpress.com

Offline Gazrob

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 03:01:29 PM »
Hi my Marley gets a bit possessive over certain toys. I'm no expert but I've been told not to leave any toys out in the house also no chews etc. He can only have them when I let him but I must remove them don't leave them for him he has to know they belong to me not him. Try only letting him play with the toys outside. No playing inside. I've learned Marley the place command meaning when i say place he goes to his bed or his crate this seems to calm him down he's not jumping and running around the house like a maniac. As for biting he has never bit me just play nipping. Tell him no if he does it again be firm with him show that you are confident dogs can pick up if someone is confident or scared. Don't let him get away with anything. When he's in his crate leave him alone. Train him all basic obedience commands consistently every single day even if he knows them. Take him for long walks tire him out. These are just suggestions. Hope this helps a bit.  If you are firm but fair with him and train him as best you can hopefully his problems will disappear and you shouldn't have to give him up.

Offline ips

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1226
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 03:32:06 PM »
Um, eze is not possessive of anything. Toys and balls are available at all times. Neither has she ever shown any aggression (apart from towards other dogs on occasions) I don't buy into the dominance thing of everything belonging to the owner, its all a bit old school. No offence intended.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Gazrob

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 03:47:51 PM »
As I say he's not agressive but he has growled at me a couple of times. It's not really a problem. He does guard some of his toys. Ive got a problem with retrieving I'll throw the ball for him but he won't give me the ball he runs away with it he wants me to chase him. I let him play with them and put them away later. If he does something wrong I will tell him no in a stern voice. I don't shout at him or abuse him.

Offline Gazrob

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 03:59:23 PM »
I only take them away because I don't want the problem to get any worse. He's not that interested in toys unfortunately just certain ones. I wish he would play fetch when out for walks but he's just not interested he just sniffs and chases birds.

Offline its.sme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1189
  • Gender: Female
  • Not trained to the Gun, just trained to my Mum x
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 04:45:25 PM »
We had a short term issue with Bea a few years back, this was due to her being very unwell but hiding it.

It might be worth getting a Vet appointment to rule out an illness etc, I would also never punish a dog for growling, how else are they ment to tell us that they are unhappy and if a dog feels they cannot do this then they will go straight to a snap or bite which is so much worse.

The attached has helped me understand the little "tells" for a un happy dog.

https://se74d10370edbbfff.jimcontent.com/download/version/1363339642/module/5741399162/name/Ladder%20of%20Aggression%20and%20text.pdf

Have you thought of getting a behaviourist involved ?


Offline Archie bean

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3627
  • Gender: Female
  • Archie. RIP bridge babies Sherwood and Dickon.
    • Emma Graham Harpist
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2017, 05:07:13 PM »
It sounds to me like it is just an extension of his guarding. He is guarding his bed - the crate at home and the soft bed at your Dad's house. It's not an uncommon thing to guard. Whether it's down to dominance or down to being anxious is impossible to say without seeing him. I would say only an experienced behaviourist would be able to tell. I wouldn't take any advice or act on it unless the behaviourist has actually seen the dog. If it is down to anxiety (as with my Archie) then any kind of confrontational technique or aversive training tool like rattles etc. could do more harm than good so I would not go down that route. I didn't have a problem with Archie guarding his bed (he didn't have a crate) so I can't offer practical advice I'm afraid, but my guess is that you are right to avoid touching him when he is there. It may be that as you continue to work on his other guarding issues, his trust levels in you will rise considerably and he will relax even when he is in his bed.

Offline Pearly

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4235
  • Gender: Female
  • Pearl, Coral, Sally, Purdey and Kukri
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2017, 11:55:08 PM »
It sounds to me like it is just an extension of his guarding. He is guarding his bed - the crate at home and the soft bed at your Dad's house. It's not an uncommon thing to guard. Whether it's down to dominance or down to being anxious is impossible to say without seeing him. I would say only an experienced behaviourist would be able to tell. I wouldn't take any advice or act on it unless the behaviourist has actually seen the dog. If it is down to anxiety (as with my Archie) then any kind of confrontational technique or aversive training tool like rattles etc. could do more harm than good so I would not go down that route. I didn't have a problem with Archie guarding his bed (he didn't have a crate) so I can't offer practical advice I'm afraid, but my guess is that you are right to avoid touching him when he is there. It may be that as you continue to work on his other guarding issues, his trust levels in you will rise considerably and he will relax even when he is in his bed.

Completely agree with this.

We have one cocker who has been known to "guard" her bed or a crate.  She will hop into the boot of the car first and not let the others in after her - this is sometimes aimed at us as well.

She came to us from a friend last year age 6 so I guess this has been going on for sometime.  OH has been bribing her with a bit of sausage every time she's asked to get into a crate or a bed.....it's working.  She'll quite happily get in and as long as she has her own space will let the others into their respective crates in the car!

I would suggest bribery and reassurance.  Get Jake to go to the mattress and gently throw a bit of sausage onto the bed while he is there, reassure him that he's a good boy and move away (turn your back on him if he grumbles) over time you should be able to get him to take the bit of sausage from your hand while he's on the mattress.....repeat for the crate but not until he is more relaxed on his bed.

Does he ever get woken up when he's sleeping in his crate or on the mattress? Just wondering if there's some sort of association that making him think he has to guard his special area?

Offline Karma

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5330
  • Gender: Female
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 09:09:41 PM »


There's a good reason for the phrase - let sleeping dogs lie.
If a dog is in their safe spot, or resting, they should be left in peace.  If they need to be moved, call them, but fingers/hands etc should not enter their sleeping space - especially if they have a tendency to guarding.

Dominance is a discreditted theory, and using any kind of aversive training could well make his anxiety worse.... while you may see a temporary reduction in the guarding behaviour, you won't be dealing with the emotional cause and, once over threshold, he may snap worse than before.

I really think you need to consult a positive behaviourist - one that will not suggest aversive training, but will observe Jake in his home and help work out what is causing his guarding....  look for someone who is registered with the apdt or pet professional guild.  Steer clear of anyone spouting dominance or aversive methods.  With the best will in the world, you will get lots of opinions on a thread like this, and some of them will be unhelpful to your situation. 

I say this as the owner of a dog who had considerable guarding tendencies, who will always be prone to guarding, but is now perfectly happy to lie in her bed with a stolen bag of crisps while my 2 young children play nearby, because they know to leave her in peace, and she knows she is safe.  She will bring me the stolen item to exchange for a treat if I need her to, but we often let her keep it until she gets bored as this reduces the value of her stolen item dramatically!

It would also be a good idea to get a vet check - eyesight problems can often contribute to guarding and "snappy" behaviour, as well as a range of other health issues.

With the best will in the world
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline rubybella

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
  • Gender: Female
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2017, 08:02:04 AM »
In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.

Offline Gazrob

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 08:36:40 AM »
Some excellent advice there rubybella. I have a minor issue with my young dog he growls at me if he has Certain toys and he also tries to bury items in the garden. he's never bit me only play biting. I've stopped giving him any toys in the house. I've also stopped playing with him in the house. I save playing for outside. When we are finished playing I will put the toys away. the only things I give him inside are dog chews which he he will eat so he can't guard them. He's now pretty relaxed in the house which is what I want.

Offline ips

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1226
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2017, 10:17:22 AM »
In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.

With respect sitting in there bed is very much based around the idea of dominance. I am not questioning your post but I think it is worth mentioning that anyone who goes down the route of taking ownership of everything including the dogs bed is very much moving the goal posts and potentially changing the relationship.
As I say I am not questioning the post the method or you 👍
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Mudmagnets

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8323
  • Gender: Female
  • My boys
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2017, 11:42:12 AM »
In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.

With respect sitting in there bed is very much based around the idea of dominance. I am not questioning your post but I think it is worth mentioning that anyone who goes down the route of taking ownership of everything including the dogs bed is very much moving the goal posts and potentially changing the relationship.
As I say I am not questioning the post the method or you 👍

This bed episode reminded so much of my first or maybe 2nd puppy many years ago (Barbara Woodhouse was training on the telly at the time) I went to a talk that the dog club I belonged to at the time was holding, we were asked if anyone had a new pup, when I put my hand up, the speaker said do you ever sit in the dog's bed to show who is boss? - I said no and he said you should, so when I got home I did just that, what did the dog so, jumped up on my bed and snuggled into the pillow - didn't teach him a lot except my bed was more comfortable than his, lol
Remembering Smudge 23/11/2006 - 3/8/2013, and Branston 30/8/14 - 28/10/22 both now at the Bridge.

Offline bizzylizzy

  • Donator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4504
  • Gender: Female
  • 🙂 Jayne
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2017, 12:00:10 PM »
In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.

With respect sitting in there bed is very much based around the idea of dominance. I am not questioning your post but I think it is worth mentioning that anyone who goes down the route of taking ownership of everything including the dogs bed is very much moving the goal posts and potentially changing the relationship.
As I say I am not questioning the post the method or you 👍

This bed episode reminded so much of my first or maybe 2nd puppy many years ago (Barbara Woodhouse was training on the telly at the time) I went to a talk that the dog club I belonged to at the time was holding, we were asked if anyone had a new pup, when I put my hand up, the speaker said do you ever sit in the dog's bed to show who is boss? - I said no and he said you should, so when I got home I did just that, what did the dog so, jumped up on my bed and snuggled into the pillow - didn't teach him a lot except my bed was more comfortable than his, lol

Oh oh - the infamous Mrs. Woodhouse, 😂😂- still have a book of her's somewhere...
Lots of good advice so far, so not a lot to add except that the "let sleeping dogs lie" advice didn't come from nowhere, I would never distrurb a sleeping dog and if Humphrey's lying in his bed or crate, I respect that its place, has nothing to do with dominance,its mutual respect that defines our relationship. Only one thing I would add is, some dogs get anxious if you bend down over them, especially if they're "cornered", - from their viewpoint someone leaning over them can seem very threatening;, I realize its not the sole cause of Jake's issue but is maybe a thing to watch for aswell. Best of luck!

Offline ips

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1226
  • Gender: Male
Re: Jake bit my dad!
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2017, 01:32:56 PM »
In general I would say the best thing to do is teach your dog from a very early age that they don't own anything! By this I mean that they learn to be comfortable with people removing things from them, sharing toys and space with other dogs and people. I know it sounds weird but let your dog see you sitting in their crate, on their bed, holding their toys, and the more they accept that it doesn't just belong to them the easier it will be. I have 3 dogs, 2 I have had from pups and 1 recently acquired older rescue. I sit with my dogs on their beds, don't interact with them if asleep, but just sit there. I play pass the toy amongst my dogs, so they get used to the fact that a toy has to be given up when asked and may be given to another dog, but then they get another one instead. I think the key is not to let them get into the habit of thinking that things solely belong to them, it's obviously much harder when you only have one dog and that is where the owner has to play a greater part. As soon as a dog gets into the mindset of guarding it can be a very hard behaviour to break, so much easier to not let it start in the first place. Another thing is that if a dog senses that you are scared of them, so if you are too scared to sit next to them on their bed or too scared to take a toy away, they have already started to get one step ahead of you. Don't be aggressive towards them, you don't need to scare them, but be firm and consistent.
I forgot to add that you need to praise the good stuff too, so giving up toys without a fuss and no fuss when you sit on their bed or in crate, gets loads of positive reinforcement.

With respect sitting in there bed is very much based around the idea of dominance. I am not questioning your post but I think it is worth mentioning that anyone who goes down the route of taking ownership of everything including the dogs bed is very much moving the goal posts and potentially changing the relationship.
As I say I am not questioning the post the method or you 👍

This bed episode reminded so much of my first or maybe 2nd puppy many years ago (Barbara Woodhouse was training on the telly at the time) I went to a talk that the dog club I belonged to at the time was holding, we were asked if anyone had a new pup, when I put my hand up, the speaker said do you ever sit in the dog's bed to show who is boss? - I said no and he said you should, so when I got home I did just that, what did the dog so, jumped up on my bed and snuggled into the pillow - didn't teach him a lot except my bed was more comfortable than his, lol

Ha 😁
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.