Author Topic: I need urgent advice please  (Read 2133 times)

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Offline Sarahsdogs

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I need urgent advice please
« on: August 22, 2017, 05:38:59 PM »
I haven't been on here for ages but I really need some advice. My younger cocker pippa who is 8 keeps going for Mollie my older dog. About 4 years ago pippa started to guard us from Mollie, if we stroked pippa and Mollie approached, pippa would attack Mollie. We got a behaviourist in who showed us how to manage the situation and it all things were calm except for the occasional instance when someone forgot our rules. About 5 months ago pippa started to attack Mollie again, I thought it was a bit of stress as we had moved house and Mollie, who is now 11 was diagnosed with a bit of dementia and was acting a bit weird and we thought maybe she was giving confusing signals to pippa. I got Pippa checked over at the vets to make sure there was no medical reason  for her behaviour and he said she was fine, he gave Mollie medication for her dementia. It then got to every day that Pippa would go for Mollie sometimes 2 or 3 times a day. Mollie would only have to walk past her or look at her and she would attack. Mollie also has arthritis in 3 joints and so is not so quick and couldnt get away from her. I went back to vets as Pippa had lost weight and so vet decided to do blood tests to check and I at the same time decided to keep the dogs separate as Pippa was stressed all the time and Mollie was hiding under the table all the time. Once I got blood tests back and they were all clear, I  decided to see if a behaviourist would help. The one I rang has a bit of a list and can't see us for 3 weeks. Yesterday someone didn't close the door properly and Pippa managed to get to Mollie and just went for her. Mollie tried to walk away but Pippa would let go. I struggled to get her to release Mollie, I got bit, she didn't mean to my arm got in the way. Mollie was limping afterwards but seems to be ok now.

I can't go on with keeping them separate but can't see they will ever be able to be together again.

Also my mum has Pippa sister who has started to go for her other dog, not all the time but acts very similar to Pippa and loses all control. My mums took her to the vets as she has got bitten a few times separating them too. The vet told her that her thought it was hereditary and then told her that he thought it was "cocker rage" and that it was rare but was sure that's what it is. He told her to see a behaviourist to confirm. My mum was upset and rang me to tell me that Pippa has it too.

I really can't see how a vet can just diagnose 2 dogs without seeing my dog ( we live in different counties). I thought " cocker rage" was very rare plus my vet has never even suggested this.  I really need some advice as I don't know what to do.

Side note:- On her own Pippa is really sweet and gentle and loves cuddles, can get stressed and whinges sometimes but you couldn't get a more loving dog and as the vet says is very solid at vets. He managed to take blood without nurse needing to hold her.

Offline Pearly

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2017, 07:29:27 PM »
You are right!  "Cocker rage" is as rare as hens teeth, it's linked to epilepsy (or so a white paper I've read suggested) and although there is some thought process that it may be genetically linked it would be hugely coincidental that two dogs from the same litter would be affected, it also manifests at a young age  :-\ IMO

You are also right that the Vet is making assumptions and one I would not be happy about - how can a Vet that hasn't seen your dog know?

We have four bitches.  The have the odd spat as you describe and sometimes it's a bit more serious - the intact female is currently in a phantom pregnancy; we've known before she's showing because she launches herself at one of the others for no reason other than they walked past whatever she decided to guard (bottom of the stairs at the moment).  This is just hormonal and will pass although the older dog is frightened of her and is already an anxious dog - of course this is likely to be the reason that's she's the target.

I would be taking Mollie to the vets for a check up.  It's plausible that the balance you've had in the house for sometime is impaired if Mollie is less firm and Pippa knows this.  Are either intact?

Has Pippa been checked for thyroid problems?  Losing weight and The Behaviour you've described are both symptomatic.  Others on here will advise better which test to ask for.

Three weeks is not very long to keep the girls separate, it would be worth waiting until the behaviourist you know is available before making any decisoins.  Likewise, it would be better for your Mums dog to be assessed by the behaviourist, it sounds to me as though the Vet is just grasping at the first idea to enter their head  >:D

Jayne
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Offline lescef

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2017, 07:53:30 PM »
I believe that cocker rage is very very rare, but I feel for you as living with dogs that can't get on is very stressful.
I have read that  if an older  dog is ill or ageing then the dynamics can change and the younger one is picking up on this.  Maybe the house move is still upsetting her.
For various reasons my older one started attacking my younger one and it was dreadful as I didn't know when (or why particularly at the time) it would happen. You are right to keep them separate which I know is hard, but you don't want the behaviour being practised as it becomes learned behaviour, as I'm sure you know. We had to give Maddie, the one doing the attacking, a month of absolute stress free time before the behaviourist came to work with us. I also had to learn not to show my anxiety when it happened - just treat it as an everyday occurrence, which I can do now. Fortunately it doesn't happen often now.
Not the same situation as you but hopefully a behaviourist will be able to help. Good luck.
Lesley, Maddie and Bramble

Offline hoover

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2017, 08:27:18 PM »
Unfortunately I don't see this situation getting any better- I think your older dog, due to the dementia, is not now capable of the 'normal' social interactions that would protect her from a younger dog that is capable of the reactions that your Pippa is having. The dementia will influence her behaviour so that in, doggy language, she stares inappropriately, walks past close when she would otherwise not, and it also means she is not likely capable of learning new responses that would protect her. The horror that dementia is - I don't see this improving and in fact her 'inappropriate responses' which trigger Pippa's behaviour are likely to increase.

Whether Pippa has cocker rage or not it sounds like she would struggle to inhibit her responses and if neither dog is capable of learning that will be very hard.  My dog Ollie I feel would be similar, as although we haven't met other dogs with issues recently, when he was younger he responded very poorly and snappily to disabled dogs and dogs not capable of the usual social interactions that govern doggy behavioural dynamics.  We feel we can't get another dog for as long as he is with us.

It sounds like they both need the right circumstances to flourish and have quality of life, but those circumstances might not be with each other  :-\

Offline Sarahsdogs

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2017, 09:12:22 PM »
Thank you for your responses. They have both been spayed so don't think hormones are the issue. I know it's not "cocker rage" but I don't think my mum does! I'm just annoyed her vet said that that was the reason. Mollie has been checked over and has been prescribed with medication which can help with her symptoms, she spends a lot of time staring into space in the middle of the room and barking at nothing in perticular so I'm sure that confuses Pippa. I know when they took blood they checked for liver problems but don't know about thyroid though but will check. During the day I don't find keeping the dogs separate too much of a problem as I swap them over every hour and a half and they get one to one attention and to be honest Mollie likes her own space and sleeps quite a bit. As for walks they both need different types of walks so need walking seperate walks anyway. Evenings and weekends are harder as 4 of us in the house and not everyone is as careful with keeping doors closed. I will keep them seperate until the behaviourist and see what she says.

Offline JeffD

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2017, 10:09:10 AM »
Change your vet, Rage is a neurological disorder nothing to do with dogs scrapping, sometimes some dogs are just miserable little sods and don't get on with other dogs.
Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly

Offline Ben's mum

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2017, 08:57:43 PM »
I really really sympathise having been through something similar  :bigarmhug:
Harry our younger cocker (8) guards food and me,  he was a rescue and very insecure but it was well managed with just the occasional spat until Ben our oldest cocker got dementia.  Then like others have said the unpredictable movements or staring really triggered him off. Ben sometimes trod on him without meaning too, and because Ben had gone deaf he no longer heard Harrys warning grumbles so he would just shove past him.  Harry never bit Ben but he barged and growled and snapped at him, frightening him very badly.

I have to admit now i dont know how we coped with it for so long but we did till we said goodbye to Ben earlier this year.  We just changed our lifestyle me and OH sleeping in seperate rooms to keep them apart so Harry didn't tread on him at night, i also am lucky in that i can take Harry to work, but that brought a whole new set of problems, i suppose what i am saying is it can be managed but it is hard work. But i agree its not rage !!!

Good luck xxx 

Offline hoover

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2017, 11:26:25 PM »
This concept of cocker rage is an interesting one, from what I can see there are different ideas about it and I'm intrigued by the idea that it might exist as a kind of stand alone neurological disorder/ epilepsy with no environmental trigger (no matter how disproportionate the response appears to be).  How would that even work in practice, considering the aggression is directed to someone, or some animal - I can't imagine you would have a dog diagnosed with cocker rage that throws a display with no target, and hence no situational trigger.

When you hear people's stories surrounding it and tease out what is happening there is normally a situation - it does not need to be consistent, it might only happen  once in every 20 occasions the person thinks is identical to ones that happened before when no aggression was exhibited, and then I tend to think that other subtle factors are all at work to put that dog, at that time, over their threshold.  Tiredness, resource value, hangover of earlier stress in the day unrecognised by owner..all conspiring to edge over the threshold. 

And if there is then a trigger and a threshold, albeit hard to fully comprehend due to our deficiencies as owners recognising the psychology of our dogs, maybe it is something after that that marks out the response as unusual and quantified as 'rage' by some - the disproportionate response - the extent of aggression and duration of aggression?  Sorry, think I am sidetracking from this thread but I am intrigued by the 'rage' concept, as an owner of a dog who has had apparently unpredictable, disproportionate and prolonged response that I have never witnessed or heard of in another dog before getting him.

Offline ips

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2017, 11:09:36 AM »
The way I understand it is that rage syndrome has been bred out by now and effected solid colours primarily goldens. A form of epilepsy that occurred without any trigger or warning.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Pearly

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2017, 10:43:11 PM »
The way I understand it is that rage syndrome has been bred out by now and effected solid colours primarily goldens. A form of epilepsy that occurred without any trigger or warning.

That's my understanding too.  The only dog I'm aware of that may have had "cocker rage" was completely unpredictable and would wake in the state:  glazed eyes and unresponsive to commands.  There is a very real difference between a dog that resource guards and one with a neurological disorder which has been mostly, if not entirely, bred out of cockers.

Offline Theo961

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2017, 06:20:17 AM »
There was a lit
The way I understand it is that rage syndrome has been bred out by now and effected solid colours primarily goldens. A form of epilepsy that occurred without any trigger or warning.

That's my understanding too.  The only dog I'm aware of that may have had "cocker rage" was completely unpredictable and would wake in the state:  glazed eyes and unresponsive to commands.  There is a very real difference between a dog that resource guards and one with a neurological disorder which has been mostly, if not entirely, bred out of cockers.


It so sad that this is sprouted of without any real investigations. Only a couple of weeks ago a little golden cocker in the village I live was put to sleep on the vets advice due to Cocker rage! It was the same age as Reese and we had met it on walks since it was a puppy and a sweet little boy, the owners are a lovely retired couple who were 1st time puppy owners. To be fair when talking to them at times over the last year when we saw them, they had come to realise they had probably bought a puppy farm puppy even though they thought at the time they has bought from a good breeder. They were understandably still so upset we we saw them, but what they described to me was nothing like my understanding of cocker rage. He had bitten one of their friends in the living room, I know this is still not good but it was the 1st time they had a lot of other people in their house and 1st time he had met them. He had never shown any other signs of aggression before, they said he had retreated to his bed and growled but when she went to sit down (which was close to him) he attacked her. This has now put them completely off the breed and telling everyone it was due to cocker rage which is commen in cockers! ( vets words!)

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2017, 07:27:34 AM »
There was a lit
The way I understand it is that rage syndrome has been bred out by now and effected solid colours primarily goldens. A form of epilepsy that occurred without any trigger or warning.

That's my understanding too.  The only dog I'm aware of that may have had "cocker rage" was completely unpredictable and would wake in the state:  glazed eyes and unresponsive to commands.  There is a very real difference between a dog that resource guards and one with a neurological disorder which has been mostly, if not entirely, bred out of cockers.


It so sad that this is sprouted of without any real investigations. Only a couple of weeks ago a little golden cocker in the village I live was put to sleep on the vets advice due to Cocker rage! It was the same age as Reese and we had met it on walks since it was a puppy and a sweet little boy, the owners are a lovely retired couple who were 1st time puppy owners. To be fair when talking to them at times over the last year when we saw them, they had come to realise they had probably bought a puppy farm puppy even though they thought at the time they has bought from a good breeder. They were understandably still so upset we we saw them, but what they described to me was nothing like my understanding of cocker rage. He had bitten one of their friends in the living room, I know this is still not good but it was the 1st time they had a lot of other people in their house and 1st time he had met them. He had never shown any other signs of aggression before, they said he had retreated to his bed and growled but when she went to sit down (which was close to him) he attacked her. This has now put them completely off the breed and telling everyone it was due to cocker rage which is commen in cockers! ( vets words!)

That's dreadful! What saddens me most is that if it were any other breed, more questions might have been asked and possibly a solution found. There are lots of snappy dogs around, particularly among the smaller breeds whereas a cocker immediately receives the "rage" stamp which results more often than not in the death sentence. I'm not suggesting the condition doesn't exist and it did indeed appear to have been a problem in cockers years ago - I have even read a paper pinpointing the source to one particular breeder, however as others have suggested, it has now been more or less outbred and is now very rare indeed. The prejudice and ignorance surrounding it however, appears to be a more difficult problem to wipe out.
Going back to the OP, I agree with JeffD, I would most certainly change the vet! Best of luck!

Offline ips

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2017, 08:20:02 AM »
The way I understand it is that rage syndrome has been bred out by now and effected solid colours primarily goldens. A form of epilepsy that occurred without any trigger or warning.

That's my understanding too.  The only dog I'm aware of that may have had "cocker rage" was completely unpredictable and would wake in the state:  glazed eyes and unresponsive to commands.  There is a very real difference between a dog that resource guards and one with a neurological disorder which has been mostly, if not entirely, bred out of cockers.

Exactly, its a easy diagnosis "cocker rage" job done.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline phoenix

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2017, 10:46:03 AM »
My thoughts too.  A relations' year old  labradoodle started attacking them  with no trigger before, and it was perfect otherwise. When their teenage daughter walked past it in the house, and blood was drawn,  they felt ,so heartbroken, , that it was too dangerous, and maybe psychotic, and was pts.   So what did they get next? The soppiest roan cocker I've ever had the pleasure to meet.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline sodpot2000

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Re: I need urgent advice please
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2017, 01:36:35 PM »
If it were 'cocker rage' it would have been evident from a very young age. It is not something that develops in later years. When I was a child we had a red cocker with this. It is evident before 12 months. With our poor lad it was only when a breeder friend looked at the pedigree that he was able to point out the catastrophic in-breeding so that the poor dog never stood a chance.