Adolescence or aggression?

[Leo0106]

Thanks so much for that mudmagnets. Me and my partner actually sat down last night and decided we would write everything down, he is off work for 2 weeks as of tomorrow so we would like to make sure we are being fully consistent throughout the day as I usually would be!
We had a very good day yesterday, Leo slept by my side while I worked and was happy to settle with a chew once he woke up.
I truly believe, now that I am observing him closely, that he really struggles to just entertain himself and feels as though he needs my attention. I gave him less attention and verbal communication yesterday and as a result, he actually came up for a cuddle in the evening which rarely happens now!
Small steps!

[Emilyoliver]

Hi, saw this yesterday on fb and it's so true:


Perthshire Gundog Rescue SCIO

29 August at 12:11 ·
..

Cute, yes they are, Spaniels especially cockers are in my experience the one breed that are causing the most issues at the moment. People are slated for not rearing them correctly, well there is some truth in that, however, cockers can be little sods, full on, heard headed and fiery. They can be extremely frustrating for some to train as they know better than us.

You have to completely understand these little lion hearts to get the best from them, give in to them, then they will take over, rule the roost and do as they please. I have 6 cockers and they have not been without their issues, and that is because its them, not what ive made them, April will take the face off another dog if she is hacked off and so will sweep, she has a massive prey drive and that has been a challenge in her training but we have cracked it but if I don't keep on top of her, she will make her own mind up what to do . Sooty, is greedy and will steal anything the second my back is turned, other than that she is perfect in every way. Daniel, full on and very very sensitive, has been difficult to train as he just melts LOL...

So, whats the answer in taking on a cocker and raising it. Child psychology comes to the very front when dealing with cockers, be hard handed on them and it can completely loose their drive and trust, be over soft and they can be a nightmare. Some people never have one issue raising cockers and have roll model dogs, however many many people are pulling their hair out and end up giving them up sadly..

The old saying which makes me laugh as its not so much these days BUT, want an easy life get a Labrador, want something more challenging get a springer and want to completely go off yer rocker get a cocker ahahahha.'

you asked about down time and play time - in my experience it isn't having them stimulated every hour - it's about having quality brain/training/play time maybe a couple of times a day.  my 10mo worker puppy is a whirlwind, but he gets about 20mins-30 mins training/play in the morning and the same in the evening.  a couple of times a week he'll have a free run (to do as he pleases so long as he responds to recall) with my other 2 cockers.  Unless we're specifically out training/playing, my dogs are taught to be quiet in the house.  It's rest time for them and me.  no games in the house/garden, and they learn to settle at home.  when out they learn that it's interaction time with me.  It may be that your pup isn't having enough rest time and time to himself.  Apparently puppies can sleep for up to 18 hours a day...  I work full time, so my dogs adjust to having time alone through the day.  I can understand that it's harder if you're at home all day.

one last thing: have you considered gundog training?  you say he came from a gamekeeper so he's been bred specifically as a working dog and you may find it's what he truly enjoys and thrives doing.  A 20 minute hunting session more than satisfies my puppy as it keeps his brain and nose working, cements our bond and keeps him responsive.  Good luck with your puppy.

[lescef]

Glad to read you feel there is a little improvement.
I also was going  to say, like others, that even saying 'no' is acknowledging him and rewarding him and that saying nothing at all is the better option. I have a demanding vocal cocker and I easily slip into verbal diarrhoea mode!  I also over treat which winds her up more!
I try to remind myself to ignore the bad stuff and verbally  praise or stroke when she is just being quiet and good.
It's amazing the difference it makes!

[bmthmark]

Reading responses here, definitely highlights how clever/stubborn these little cockers are 

That's a great read Emilyoliver regarding the Perthshire Gundog Rescue comment - very true

[Leo0106]

Emilyoliver, thankyou so much for your post, I found it really useful and it's amazing to see a post that reassures me that I am not the only one!
The fantastic thing is that with all the stubborness and excitement Leo presents, he also has a heart of gold, will do anything for a cuddle and a treat. And that's why we love them!!
Emilyoliver first into your post you spoke about your 10mth old cocker and it raised a few questions for me that I hope you won't mind answering. When your pup is expected to leave you be and have chill time when you're home, do you allow him to occupy himself with toys, chews etc? Also, you mentioned he is only free off lead a few times a week, Leo currently has all 3 walks a day off the lead. Do you feel that by doing this I am giving him too much free time to do as he pleases? He is fantastic on a lead so I'm wondering wether I should reduce off lead time to maybe 1 walk a day?
With regards to your question about gundog training, I have considered this in the past but to be honest would have no idea where to source the training etc. At present we are training him in scentwork and he is going to weekly classes. He absolutely loves this and is a complete natural! It also seems to tire him out.. although you would never know unless you were me because he stays awake all day 😂 
Lescef thankyou for your post too, my verbal communication always gets the better of me Too! Glad I'm not the only one.  Today i have tried to completely cut out any negative communication etc and although he's still been a pickle.. I havnt actually been bitten today.. so something must be working.

Through observation,and since I've had a couple of days where the biting has reduced, I have really come to notice that he is just utterly lost without me giving him attention! He follows me every time I move and unless he has a super tasty chew, he just goes for the furniture etc in the expectation that I will react.  I think the underlying cause to the biting may in part be down to his inability to entertain or settle himself!
I guess to move forward now what I really would love to know is what I should expect with him.. I don't want to ask too much of the people on this forum but you are all providing me with such great advice that I would love to know your thoughts on what a normal day should look like?

If it helps I could give a brief overview of his current routine?
Again. Many many thanks for all your comments so far... sometimes it is difficult to know what to expect when I don't have anyone to talk to who has been through it!

[lescef]

Our trainer once said that if the dog has been fed, watered, let out and played with then they should eventually be able to lie quietly. If it hasn't already been mentioned google 'relax on a mat'. It becomes a default setting.
There are several ways of doing it.
I think, and I count myself in this, that we try too much to humanise our dogs, especially if you are at home all day. I believe an adult dog should sleep about  14 hours a day.

[Leo0106]

I agree with you lescef  and I am attempting to get him to settle on a mat at present. Today he had a chew to settle with, normally with a chew he chucks it all over the place and plays with it  today when I told him to settle he led on the floor with the chew for 40 minutes. Which is progress. I blame myself entirely as I feel we have often give into his demands when he was younger, I don't think this helped when he had his Tumor removed because he wasn't allowed to go for walks for ages (pulled out his stitches!) And therefore we gave him a lot of attention trying to keep his mind working..... we learn from our mistakes haha

[Pearly]

I've held off replying as so many others have already offered good advice but think it may help you feel a bit better about the situation if I share a bit of my story...

At 9 months old, Pearl (show type) was a nightmare.  She would be awake from 5.30am until 11.30pm.  I have vivid memories of being sat on my living room floor, with the intention that she wasn't allowed on furniture so I went to her level - well, that's what you do with labradors, right? Only to find she was a zooming, whirling dervish that rapidly became a low flying set of very sharp teeth.  I sat and cried.  If someone had come to my door and told me they were there to take her off me, I'd have willingly let them take her.

I logged on to COL and read through old posts from others that had challenges with pups.  Not just your usual teething/cockerdile phase but a very real frenzied nipping cocker pup - it was a god send!

The penny dropped that she was far worse on a Sunday that any other day......the weeks routine would be up at 5.30 short walk before being settled into her crate, I would go to work and a neighbour popped in mid morning to check on her/let her out.  I'd come home for lunch and spend 45 minutes with her playing hide and seek or trying to get her to retrieve (gave that up at 2 years old!) back in the crate for 2 hours - neighbour let her out and I'd be home 1.5 hours later....she would be awake all evening and upstairs, out of the crate over night.  Around 9 months she stopped going into the crate in the day.  Weekends were different but mostly focussed on Pearl with lovely walks, days out or visits to friends / family with her and she would be awake all day......

Frankly she was exhausted and becoming increasingly fractious.  As soon as I realised this and got the crate out again - that she went into willingly - and enforced naps morning, afternoon, evening and an early night......she became a much better behaved dog! All this coincided with the lead up to her first season so may have been connected.

Of all our dogs, Pearl is the most anxious.  She still demands attention and it was through Pearl and trying to find ways to mentally tire her out that I got hooked on beating (she's pretty good as a beating dog) and went to Gundog training. 

We now have 4 cockers, 3 wcs and Pearl plus I met my future husband at training 

If you don't already have a set routine, that includes at least 14 hours sleep a day then I would suggest starting one.  As Michelle has suggested, Gundog training or training that includes more than basic obedience is a great way to tire a cocker. 

I was pretty naive when Pearl came home and assumed that if I was awake she could be and would settle down when tired.......not all cockers come pre-programmed with an "off-switch" 

Good luck with your boy x

[ips]

I've held off replying as so many others have already offered good advice but think it may help you feel a bit better about the situation if I share a bit of my story...

At 9 months old, Pearl (show type) was a nightmare.  She would be awake from 5.30am until 11.30pm.  I have vivid memories of being sat on my living room floor, with the intention that she wasn't allowed on furniture so I went to her level - well, that's what you do with labradors, right? Only to find she was a zooming, whirling dervish that rapidly became a low flying set of very sharp teeth.  I sat and cried.  If someone had come to my door and told me they were there to take her off me, I'd have willingly let them take her.

I logged on to COL and read through old posts from others that had challenges with pups.  Not just your usual teething/cockerdile phase but a very real frenzied nipping cocker pup - it was a god send!

The penny dropped that she was far worse on a Sunday that any other day......the weeks routine would be up at 5.30 short walk before being settled into her crate, I would go to work and a neighbour popped in mid morning to check on her/let her out.  I'd come home for lunch and spend 45 minutes with her playing hide and seek or trying to get her to retrieve (gave that up at 2 years old!) back in the crate for 2 hours - neighbour let her out and I'd be home 1.5 hours later....she would be awake all evening and upstairs, out of the crate over night.  Around 9 months she stopped going into the crate in the day.  Weekends were different but mostly focussed on Pearl with lovely walks, days out or visits to friends / family with her and she would be awake all day......

Frankly she was exhausted and becoming increasingly fractious.  As soon as I realised this and got the crate out again - that she went into willingly - and enforced naps morning, afternoon, evening and an early night......she became a much better behaved dog! All this coincided with the lead up to her first season so may have been connected.

Of all our dogs, Pearl is the most anxious.  She still demands attention and it was through Pearl and trying to find ways to mentally tire her out that I got hooked on beating (she's pretty good as a beating dog) and went to Gundog training. 

We now have 4 cockers, 3 wcs and Pearl plus I met my future husband at training 

If you don't already have a set routine, that includes at least 14 hours sleep a day then I would suggest starting one.  As Michelle has suggested, Gundog training or training that includes more than basic obedience is a great way to tire a cocker. 

I was pretty naive when Pearl came home and assumed that if I was awake she could be and would settle down when tired.......not all cockers come pre-programmed with an "off-switch" 

Good luck with your boy x

A good and insightful post Jayne. Eze has never been that much bother but her behaviour definitely changes if over tired. Luckily she now has a good routine

[Emilyoliver]

Hi, in answer to your question - yes, they have toys and hooves in the house so can chew on those if they choose. I just don't entertain them. I suppose they learn to rest and not demand constant interaction when they're young puppies as they are all crate trained from the day they come home. So if I can't watch them plus after play sessions/toileting/feeding, they go in their crates for rest when they're young. And then it becomes a routine. I think it's about me deciding when we'll play - rather than them demanding I do as and when they choose (as you've alluded to already). 

As for the free running, I don't 'walk' my puppy in the conventional sense. I'll take him somewhere where he'll hunt under control and do some retrieving. It's all off lead. It's just not him running ahead entertaining himself. Even when out with my other 2, I have to be very careful as he gets very over-excited and can lose his head. So he rubs with them but I recall him and walk him on lead for some bits just to re-calm him. If I was to walk him 'normally' he'd very soon be racing about like a loony, and then start chasing stuff. It's a fine balance and I have to be very careful.

Saying that, all dogs are different and my other worker who works, isn't half as wired and can mange a normal walk. Although he wasn't walked with the others until at least 9 or 10 months once the obedience had been instilled.

It all probably sounds a bit gestapo-ish! But really it's not - they're happy dogs allowed the freedom they have because I am so careful when they're young. Once they have been taught to hunt under control and stop to flush/ to the whistle then they are safe to take pretty much anywhere as they are controllable in most situations - particularly where game may be present.

A big problem with many working strain cockers is that they are afforded too much freedom to self hunt and entertain while young on 'walks'. They start off nice and obedient but very often they learn what their noses are for, find game, discover chasing it is the best thing ever. And then sadly sued the rest of their days on lead .

I'm not suggesting you stop all off lead walking, but be very careful and try to make the walks interactive do your puppy looks to you for guidance and fun rather than outward. The basics of gundog training are really useful as even the retrieving part allows you to give your dig freedom to run off lead but under control. If you say whereabouts you are, someone may be able to recommend a gundog trainer in your area in case you decide it's something you might like to try.

[ips]

Hi, in answer to your question - yes, they have toys and hooves in the house so can chew on those if they choose. I just don't entertain them. I suppose they learn to rest and not demand constant interaction when they're young puppies as they are all crate trained from the day they come home. So if I can't watch them plus after play sessions/toileting/feeding, they go in their crates for rest when they're young. And then it becomes a routine. I think it's about me deciding when we'll play - rather than them demanding I do as and when they choose (as you've alluded to already). 

As for the free running, I don't 'walk' my puppy in the conventional sense. I'll take him somewhere where he'll hunt under control and do some retrieving. It's all off lead. It's just not him running ahead entertaining himself. Even when out with my other 2, I have to be very careful as he gets very over-excited and can lose his head. So he rubs with them but I recall him and walk him on lead for some bits just to re-calm him. If I was to walk him 'normally' he'd very soon be racing about like a loony, and then start chasing stuff. It's a fine balance and I have to be very careful.

Saying that, all dogs are different and my other worker who works, isn't half as wired and can mange a normal walk. Although he wasn't walked with the others until at least 9 or 10 months once the obedience had been instilled.

It all probably sounds a bit gestapo-ish! But really it's not - they're happy dogs allowed the freedom they have because I am so careful when they're young. Once they have been taught to hunt under control and stop to flush/ to the whistle then they are safe to take pretty much anywhere as they are controllable in most situations - particularly where game may be present.

A big problem with many working strain cockers is that they are afforded too much freedom to self hunt and entertain while young on 'walks'. They start off nice and obedient but very often they learn what their noses are for, find game, discover chasing it is the best thing ever. And then sadly sued the rest of their days on lead .

I'm not suggesting you stop all off lead walking, but be very careful and try to make the walks interactive do your puppy looks to you for guidance and fun rather than outward. The basics of gundog training are really useful as even the retrieving part allows you to give your dig freedom to run off lead but under control. If you say whereabouts you are, someone may be able to recommend a gundog trainer in your area in case you decide it's something you might like to try.

Great post 👍

[Leo0106]

Hi Pearly,
Many many thanks for your post, I just read it out to my partner who exclaimed 'so the dogs not broken?!?' It's a real relief.
Leo is not crate trained but is very very good at settling down for a sleep in his bed in the kitchen. He will gladly sleep for 3 hours after his morning walk in the kitchen. The problem lies when we are around, luckily we've never had any issue settling on his own but when we are here, or he's in the lounge, he just can't switch off. I've always felt guilty leaving him alone in the kitchen when I am home as I've never want to isolate him from us... but that maybe what we need to do?!
Emilyoliver thankyou so much for your reply, I think I will increase the amount of 'onlead' time Leo has, I know he is always an angel when on the lead on a 1-1 basis however is a little more difficult when 2 of us are walking him so giving him less freedom may encourage the more positive lead walking with multiple people as well. We always ensure he has stimulation on a walk, he loves a ball and we sometimes play hide and seek with him which he loves too.
I'm out all day tomorrow and have instructed my partner of the regular routine to follow with the added instruction that he should try and encourage Leo to settle and chill on his own at all costs when he is not training or walking.

Thankyou so much again

[Pearly]

Hi Pearly,
Many many thanks for your post, I just read it out to my partner who exclaimed 'so the dogs not broken?!?' It's a real relief.
Leo is not crate trained but is very very good at settling down for a sleep in his bed in the kitchen. He will gladly sleep for 3 hours after his morning walk in the kitchen. The problem lies when we are around, luckily we've never had any issue settling on his own but when we are here, or he's in the lounge, he just can't switch off. I've always felt guilty leaving him alone in the kitchen when I am home as I've never want to isolate him from us... but that maybe what we need to do?!
Emilyoliver thankyou so much for your reply, I think I will increase the amount of 'onlead' time Leo has, I know he is always an angel when on the lead on a 1-1 basis however is a little more difficult when 2 of us are walking him so giving him less freedom may encourage the more positive lead walking with multiple people as well. We always ensure he has stimulation on a walk, he loves a ball and we sometimes play hide and seek with him which he loves too.
I'm out all day tomorrow and have instructed my partner of the regular routine to follow with the added instruction that he should try and encourage Leo to settle and chill on his own at all costs when he is not training or walking.

Thankyou so much again

It all sounds very familiar!  Pearl is now 6.5 years old and asleep on the rug in the living room  there were many evenings that I thought I'd never see her do that! Coral is a completely different dog - flat out on the settee and often asks to go to bed at 9.30pm  at 2.5 years old, she's very much a handful but the most obedient of all four!  The other 2 are with OH at his house and at this hour will be settled and asleep.

I'm not sure if you are UK based or where your nearest trainer would be but if you can get to Ashbourne, near Leek there is a fabulous - positive only - Gundog trainer who works on the basis of exclusion.  That is, your dog has to learn to be respectful (humans through doors before dogs - also safer! Etc) and earn their affection.  I use this method where I can with Coral, she only gets attention from me when she's behaving, that also means that I call her to give her a fuss......it's not given if she pesters for attention 

There is light at the end of the tunnel but Leo sounds to be a bright lad who has you pretty well trained.......he's exactly the right age to turn that the other way around!

Jayne
X

[Londongirl]

Until recently. I would at least once a day take myself off to another part of the house and leave Henry behind the baby gate in the kitchen. I'd do this if he was getting fractious but unable to settle in case I did something 'interesting'. Left on his own, he'd quickly settle for a nap. In internet slang terms, Henry has a bad case of FOMO - Fear Of Missing Out! Making things really boring actually helps him relax, rather than being alert for what or might not be about to happen.

[Leo0106]

Hi Jayne
Sorry I should have said where I was based. I am UK based, living in Peterborough at present. Not sure where leeke still be in comparison to me but have started to Google local places etc to see if there is anywhere local!
My other half has got Leo today, he has been putting him behind the stair gate when he is starting to attention seek and Leo is falling straight asleep, so we know he is tired, he's just clearly not ready to let himself settle. A severe case of FOMO as you said London girl!!