Author Topic: Legally docked question  (Read 12105 times)

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Offline Ben's mum

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Legally docked question
« on: September 08, 2017, 10:15:11 PM »
I'm not wanting to start a debate about docking just wanted to ask a question, I am tentitively looking at breeders/puppies, OH says its too soon after losing Ben, but I am puppy broody  ;) and it doesnt hurt to look !

I have been surprised to see puppies advertised as 'legally docked and dewclawed' even though they are clearly not workers, have things changed now ?  its been so long since I looked at puppies. My understanding was docking was allowed if pups were going to a working home, so has this changed in recent years or have i misunderstood. As much as I love workers, I don't think we have the right sort of lifestyle so it would be another show boy probably  :luv: and I was expecting a full tail like Harry.

Thank you for any help or advice  :D


Offline ips

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 03:37:30 AM »
I'm not wanting to start a debate about docking just wanted to ask a question, I am tentitively looking at breeders/puppies, OH says its too soon after losing Ben, but I am puppy broody  ;) and it doesnt hurt to look !

I have been surprised to see puppies advertised as 'legally docked and dewclawed' even though they are clearly not workers, have things changed now ?  its been so long since I looked at puppies. My understanding was docking was allowed if pups were going to a working home, so has this changed in recent years or have i misunderstood. As much as I love workers, I don't think we have the right sort of lifestyle so it would be another show boy probably  :luv: and I was expecting a full tail like Harry.

Thank you for any help or advice  :D

Your understanding is correct. The vet must be satisfied that the dog was bred for working and will be worked.
That's how I read it.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2017, 07:45:20 AM »
I'm not wanting to start a debate about docking just wanted to ask a question, I am tentitively looking at breeders/puppies, OH says its too soon after losing Ben, but I am puppy broody  ;) and it doesnt hurt to look !

I have been surprised to see puppies advertised as 'legally docked and dewclawed' even though they are clearly not workers, have things changed now ?  its been so long since I looked at puppies. My understanding was docking was allowed if pups were going to a working home, so has this changed in recent years or have i misunderstood. As much as I love workers, I don't think we have the right sort of lifestyle so it would be another show boy probably  :luv: and I was expecting a full tail like Harry.

Thank you for any help or advice  :D

Your understanding is correct. The vet must be satisfied that the dog was bred for working and will be worked.
That's how I read it.

Just out of pure curiosity, - I have no knowledge or opinion on docking or breeding regulations but am interested  how a vet can  be satisfied that the dog will be worked before its  been sold? Would the breeder/seller be bound to stipulate conditions of sale?

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2017, 08:34:41 AM »
The vet needs to be satisfied that the intent is to sell the puppies to working homes. The 'evidence' required is either a shotgun licence held by owner of the bitch or a letter from a gamekeeper stating that the bitch works on his shoot.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline Ben's mum

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2017, 08:51:26 AM »
Thank you all for clarifying thats what i thought, perhaps i am just making a lazy assumption that show cockers won't be working, i guess there is a possibilty they might, i was just surprised to see it.  :D

Offline JeffD

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2017, 10:15:46 AM »
I would be very surprised to see a litter of pedigree show cockers that have been docked, Dogs with docked tails can not enter any KC show.
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Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2017, 10:44:31 AM »
Thanks. - that's something new I learned today, and not anything I'd ever even thought about before! What a mine of information COL is!!  ;)

Offline Jaysmumagain

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2017, 12:03:24 PM »
Just to say I too believe that the shotgun license is the proof needed for docking.
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You are always with me darlings Jaypup and my precious Oliver you are so missed

Offline EmmaRose

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2017, 01:27:48 PM »
I saw a litter of cocker puppies earlier this year (for work - not me!) and they were docked, the mother had been to a shoot before although wasn't regularly worked and the breeder had a shotgun license which is how he was able to have them docked.
Emma, Pippa & Rory x


Offline JeffD

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2017, 11:04:02 AM »
Most breeders of working cockers know that future working owners prefer dogs with docked tails, nothing to do with looks its just lessens the risk of tail damage. Lots of worker pups for pet homes are for sale with out docks and they do have wonderful swishy floor cleaning tails
Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly

Offline TheAdventuresofBarnaby

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2017, 01:51:21 PM »
I understand that where permission for docking is given, it relates to the entire litter.  Also because docking early is regarded as less traumatic for the pups,  the whole litter get docked at the same time,  even though some may end up going to non-working homes.

Offline Macie-Working-Cocker

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2017, 12:47:23 PM »
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Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2017, 02:02:39 PM »
The breeder I got my working cocker from owned both the stud and the bitch. The stud was worked on a regular basis but the bitch was not. When the bitch fell pregnant the ad was up weeks prior to the birth in which time we were screened to check we were suitable for having her (Many people were turned away). We were honest and indicated we had no intention of working her but that she would have a very active lifestyle as this breed required.. as a result she was not docked.
Prior to the birth we were not guaranteed a bitch but stated this was our preference. We were second to contact the breeder so had second choice upon the birth. She had a litter of 8 with 5 bitches, the day of the birth we made our selection and so did the others. The pups that were going to working homes were then legally docked and those that were not weren't.

The only downfall to this method was that you chose your pup at a very early stage so it's hard to see what sort of size they may be, any imperfections etc.. however this was a proven breeder with a long pedigree blood line, plenty of health checks had been completed and previous litters produced flawless pups so we were happy to go off that basis.

I personally think this breeders method was spot on with screening before deciding whether the pup required docking or not. I have had the odd comment of a working owner asking why I did not get her tail docked but i'm sure if it was docked id have had a lot more wondering why it was docked when I do not work her. If I breed her, I will use the method the breeder used.
The risk in this is that you may end up with undocked puppies at the end of the process that are difficult to sell if any of the 'undocked buyers' pulled out between choosing and taking puppies home.  Seems to be quite common for people to pull out of buying a puppy halfway through the process.  While some people like undocked working cockers, most people who will work them won't buy an undocked puppy.  I definitely wouldn't.  As you also said - it's very difficult to choose a puppy at a day old, and by leaving some undocked you're limiting the choice of other buyers (and vice versa).  I think you were lucky with your breeder.  Most will either dock the whole litter, or not (mostly because the legislation doesn't allow them to).  Also, if you don't work your bitch, do you have a shotgun licence?  because if not you will find it difficult to get any of the puppies docked.  And most people wanting a puppy for work will be looking at pups by working parents.  Might be best to just have an all undocked litter for pet homes.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline ips

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2017, 02:33:04 PM »
The breeder I got my working cocker from owned both the stud and the bitch. The stud was worked on a regular basis but the bitch was not. When the bitch fell pregnant the ad was up weeks prior to the birth in which time we were screened to check we were suitable for having her (Many people were turned away). We were honest and indicated we had no intention of working her but that she would have a very active lifestyle as this breed required.. as a result she was not docked.
Prior to the birth we were not guaranteed a bitch but stated this was our preference. We were second to contact the breeder so had second choice upon the birth. She had a litter of 8 with 5 bitches, the day of the birth we made our selection and so did the others. The pups that were going to working homes were then legally docked and those that were not weren't.

The only downfall to this method was that you chose your pup at a very early stage so it's hard to see what sort of size they may be, any imperfections etc.. however this was a proven breeder with a long pedigree blood line, plenty of health checks had been completed and previous litters produced flawless pups so we were happy to go off that basis.

I personally think this breeders method was spot on with screening before deciding whether the pup required docking or not. I have had the odd comment of a working owner asking why I did not get her tail docked but i'm sure if it was docked id have had a lot more wondering why it was docked when I do not work her. If I breed her, I will use the method the breeder used.
The risk in this is that you may end up with undocked puppies at the end of the process that are difficult to sell if any of the 'undocked buyers' pulled out between choosing and taking puppies home.  Seems to be quite common for people to pull out of buying a puppy halfway through the process.  While some people like undocked working cockers, most people who will work them won't buy an undocked puppy.  I definitely wouldn't.  As you also said - it's very difficult to choose a puppy at a day old, and by leaving some undocked you're limiting the choice of other buyers (and vice versa).  I think you were lucky with your breeder.  Most will either dock the whole litter, or not (mostly because the legislation doesn't allow them to).  Also, if you don't work your bitch, do you have a shotgun licence?  because if not you will find it difficult to get any of the puppies docked.  And most people wanting a puppy for work will be looking at pups by working parents.  Might be best to just have an all undocked litter for pet homes.

Must admit I find it most odd for a working breeder to only dock half a litter !!
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline Macie-Working-Cocker

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Re: Legally docked question
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2017, 02:34:49 PM »
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