Nervous Of Other Dogs

[claire northmore]

Daisy is five months old and she is very nervous of other dogs.  We really want to show her and are very worried about it.  

When we got her she came from a kennels so was mixing with other dogs without a problem.  She got on with Poppy brilliantly when we brought her home and all was going well.

We took her to Puppy class at 14 weeks and she hated it she growled at the other dogs and barked.  I let her sit on my lap for the class and then we came home.  Two weeks later we went back and she was the same - we left early because I felt she was distressed.  She wasn't nasty and going for them she was backing away from them.

During Christmas I have tried to get to interact with some other dogs in our family and she is still growling and hiding in the corner.  

Does anyone have any advice.  I'm not sure if it was my fault because I took her to puppy socialisation too early.  It was quite a small hall and there were a lot of big dogs there.  I hope I haven't scarred her for life.

[Morticia]

Hi there
I am new to the forum too, Bubbes is 2 years old and still gets a bit nervous like this, I seriously suggest you check out the new dvd by Jan Fennell.  I dont know whether you have heard of her but she is a dog listener.  It helps because you can understand how the dogs mind works to solve these problems. She has her own website if you want some more information.

http://www.janfennellthedoglistener.com/index.htm

[claire northmore]

The class that we went to with Poppy and Daisy has been getting larger and larger.  The weeks we took Daisy there were at least 25 or more dogs in a small village hall and most of them were large breeds.

I just think that it is madness.  The trainers can't spend any time with you at all.  I have found a website called Devon Dog Training and they have classes in Newton Abbot that only have 8 dogs per class as a maximum and you book for the full course of 8 weeks.  I have booked Poppy and Daisy in - that way there will only be 6 extra dogs that Daisy won't know.  

Fingers crossed this will work.  They certainly sounded well organised and managing class number is a good start.

[Morticia]

Bless her I'm sure she'll be fine. I had a trainer come to the house to avoid this its not cheap it cost £100 for four sessions but it saved the stress of the dog classes.

[Top Barks]

]Hi, this is coming from someone who shares this problem and has been trying to work through it for the last 18 months.
You have to first realise that you might not be able to do everything you wanted with this dog and take steps towards your goal as a bonus.
I would love to enter htm comps with Douglas but the stress caused by the proximity to some strange dogs means I have had to think of him and not put him through it.
there is no quick fix to this problem and you may have to accept that your dog is not going to be the life and soul of the doggie get togethers.
The way I work on this is to try and arrange to meet calm dogs who show lots of calming signals.
We walk side by side with the other dog and owner at a distance where your dog is not worried and pair this walking with treats and rewards.
you can get closer if the dog seems ok, but if the dog starts to get woried then take a step back. The idea is that the dog learns to associate the proximity of another dog with something good coming.
I have achieved results with some other dogs and Douglas with this method but by no means does he not get stressed at every encounter we have.
you need to build up your dog's confidence around other dogs but you must do it in a manner where you are in control and can remove the dog if it becomes neccesary. Try and avoid all situations when you think your dog might react and don't force him to try and be sociable.
Many behaviourists have stooge dogs that are used for such work, but just because your dog is eventualy is okay around this dog doesn't mean to say he is cured.
What I'm trying to say is it's an ongoing task reforming a dog for whatever reason has become reactive.
Is this a new problem? was their an incident at the Puppy class that could have upset your dog?
have you had your dog checked at the vets recently as if your dog was unwell he may not have wanted to be sociable that day?
Their can be allsorts of reasons why your dog will react the trick is to find out what triggers the reaction to try and deal with it.
Is it big dogs,males, ones with floppy ears etc that your dog doesn't like.?
I have beome fascinated with dog behaviour and my interest all came from a problem similar to yours and my desire to try and help Doug.
Their are lots of books you can read that might help, The culture clash by  and on talking terms with dogs by Tuurid Ruggas two name just two.
A good video to help understanding of dog dog interaction is Angela stockdales Canine chatroom which I believe you can get from cross keys books.
hope some of this helps but if the problem persists i would seek the advice of a reputable behaviourist.
Also check out the website of an american behaviourist and trainer Dee Ganley at deesdogs.com who specialises in this sort of thing.
She is coming to do a seminar in England in march this year and is well worth checking out.
I think the details are on learningaboutdogs.co.uk

Pm me if I can help or pass on my experiences further and best of luck

Mark,Douglas and Oliver

[flossysmum]

We had a problem like this with flossy, she used to hate other dogs but when she had her first litter she calmed down a lot and made a lot of new friends at obedience classes. She still growls a bit but not as bad as she used to be I think with having other dogs in the house she has learnt to accept it and it has helped her socialise.

[Top Barks]

25 dogs in a hall is disgrace and this trainer is either very greedy or completly clueless
Even well run classes are not the answer for a nervous reactive dog so I would bite the bullet and train one to one with someody other than the person who had 25 dogs in a hall.
Their are lots of things you can do to help with anxiety.Have you ever heard of TTouch, which is a form of massage combined with confidence building training exercises. I have seen this work with amazing results.
If you have a local TTouch practitioner I would certainly give this a try.
You could try Dap spray on your clothes which might help and some people sing the praises of Bach flower remedies or herbal remedies such as scullcap and valerian to help with a fearful dog.
With regard to Jan fennel, I would be wary of following some of the advice given if she is still preaching the rank reduction method she has used in the past.
I must admit I have not seen her latest DVD although I have read all of her books and I have come to the conclusion that what she did, did not work for the reasons she suggested.
Please be very careful before innitiating a dominace reduction program with a nervous dog as I think you will do more halm than good.
I might be wrong, she might have entered the twentyfirst century but having not seen her latest work I couldn't say.
Certainly the books and website I reccomended earlier in the thread would possibly be more beneficial than Jan's but make your own mind up.
I did!
Mark Doug and Ollie  

[Top Barks]

We had a problem like this with flossy, she used to hate other dogs but when she had her first litter she calmed down a lot and made a lot of new friends at obedience classes. She still growls a bit but not as bad as she used to be I think with having other dogs in the house she has learnt to accept it and it has helped her socialise.

[snapback]171487[/snapback]

Yes this will help to an extent but this will  probably not generalise to strange dogs in alien environments so beware!

[Pammy]

One of the best things you can do if you have a dog that is nervous is to make them mix with other dogs and for you to be as upbeat and jolly and confident as you can. They will pick up your nervousness and react accordingly, turn this into string confident jolly behavour and they see there is nothing to worry about..

Jasper used to bark at other people and dogs, but ignoring his bad behaviour, jollying him along and then lots of praise worked wonders. You need to divert their attention to you and away from whatever it is that's causing them problems.

Large puppy classes won't work it can be to overpowering etc. But it is learned behaviour that can generally be overwritten by new learning.

hth

[Top Barks]

One of the best things you can do if you have a dog that is nervous is to make them mix with other dogs This will either cure or make the problem worse and is a very high risk strategy in my oppinion.
and for you to be as upbeat and jolly and confident as you can. They will pick up your nervousness and react accordingly, turn this into string confident jolly behavour and they see there is nothing to worry about..
Being like this when you have a reactive dog is difficult to do!
Large puppy classes won't work it can be to overpowering etc. But it is learned behaviour that can generally be overwritten by new learning.
  with a lot of time and effort when dealing with an older dog as I know from my experience

[snapback]171497[/snapback]

[claire northmore]

Thank you for all your help.  The class that I went to is a show ring class that does puppy socialisation at the start.  Being very new to showing we started going with Poppy a year ago and she was fine but she is very confident and loves other dogs.  

We bought Daisy because we wanted to start showing more seriously and took her along to this class with Poppy.  I just couldn't believe how many dogs were there, Daisy had shown no signs of problems before this night.  The second time I took her it was equally as bad and I left after 15 mins.  The trainer wasn't happy and said that I should stay and that she wouldn't get better if I didn't.  Its really hard because they are so much more experienced than I am but I just had to rely on my gut instinct and I didn't think staying and telling her off for growling all the time was going to make the situation better.  If it had been my first dog I think I would have stayed but now I have a little more experience I tried to trust my instincts and go with what I thought was best for my dog.  

I keep looking back and wondering if I did the right thing in taking her or taking her and not going back.  Its so upsetting.  People running these classes really should control their numbers.  Who knows if that was the reason but I can't believe having such large classes is good.  The trainer wasn't aware there was a problem till I got up to leave.  At that time as well Daisy wouldn't walk on a lead and she said to me" how old is your dog she should be able to walk on a lead by now".  I had only had her from the breeder two weeks before, she was 14 weeks old.  That was the last straw.  

We have practiced walking on a lead at home for a while now and she is doing great.  

I really want to sort this out and I thank you all for your advice.  I will try different things and see which she responds to best.  She's such a sweetie, she loves people.  

I hope I haven't made it worse by not going back.  On a couple of walks where she has met dogs she seems to have been a little better in the open space.  

I'll keep you posted on our progress.  I want to show her and let everyone see my wonderful baby.

[Top Barks]

Believe me you have done your dog a favour by not going back.
I hope this experience doesn't put you off training your dog as it can be very rewarding for both dog and handler in the right environment.
best of luck.
Mark, Doug and Ollie

[Pammy]

One of the best things you can do if you have a dog that is nervous is to make them mix with other dogs This will either cure or make the problem worse and is a very high risk strategy in my oppinion. Not if done properly in a controlled manner with suitable other dogs.and for you to be as upbeat and jolly and confident as you can. They will pick up your nervousness and react accordingly, turn this into string confident jolly behavour and they see there is nothing to worry about..
Being like this when you have a reactive dog is difficult to do! That may be the case but unless you can overcome your fears your dog has a lesser chance of overcoming theirs as they feel there is something for them to fear .
Large puppy classes won't work it can be to overpowering etc. But it is learned behaviour that can generally be overwritten by new learning.
  with a lot of time and effort when dealing with an older dog as I know from my experience I wouldn't disgaree with you, and why I said generally rather than always - but the subject of this thread is actually a puppy so it is much easier to overcome but only if tackled sooner rather than later, which is when you then end up with a much more deep rooted problem.

[snapback]171497[/snapback]

[snapback]171500[/snapback]

[claire northmore]

Thank you Mark.  I have found a local TTouch therapist in my area via their website and left a message for her to call me back to discuss it in more detail.  I had never heard of this method before and I will be interested to learn more.

Being inexperienced with dogs I may be wrong but after having owned a cocker spaniel for just over a year and now having two I firmly believe that every dog is different and I agree with you I don't believe shouting or being very harsh with them is the answer.  I want to be able to communicate with them when they are worried just as I do day to day when they are happy.  I want them to trust that I will make everything ok.  

When we had Poppy first she used to play bite ALOT and it used to really hurt.  After saying no LOTS & LOTS it just wasn't working, she wasn't understanding what I was meaning.  I watched a program about difficult children and they had a time out corner where they just simply placed the child in time out and igonred them, calmly and quietly if they were naughty.  I tried it with Poppy and within one day she had stopped.  I felt better because I wasn't shouting at her anymore.

I want to be able to communicate with Daisy in a way that she understands that she doesn't need to be frightened.  

[Pammy]

I will try different things and see which she responds to best. 

I hope I haven't made it worse by not going back.  On a couple of walks where she has met dogs she seems to have been a little better in the open space. 

[snapback]171501[/snapback]

By all means try different things - but don't chop and change. Give things a chance to work and don't expect results overnight

Often open spaces give them more confidence as they have somewhere to run to. In a closed room or confined space their anxieties can increase due to the lack of running away space  If you have found this to be the case for Daisy then I would look to concentrate on this and really build her confidence. You can then look to try another training class maybe.