here go's

[Cob-Web]

so really rachel you are perpetuating the show/worker split as you don't want a gundog with gundog tendencies....well that's how your post reads to me.  I for one like the idea of a working test (it doesn't mean the dog has to work constantly - i questioned Katina on this on another post) as part of the requirements for showing.  After all this was what the gundog was bred originally to do.

To an extent, and I  do think that most breeds now have a working/show/pet split to a greater or lesser degree    It is marked in collies,  many gundog breeds especially spaniels and labradors, and terriers (including Yorkshires)

I wouldn't object to a working test - but if all pedigree dog litters were selectively bred not only for their conformity to standard (as show breeders do) but also their ability in the field (as working dog breeders do, as opposed to the ability to pass a *test*), then I would expect to see far more in rescue - a dog bred with a high working drive does not suit the majority of pet homes

[silkstocking]

I doubt that the majority of breeders have gone to the lengths that I have before considering a litter....

I'm actually astounded by that comment!!  

The majority of reputable breeders don't go about things willy nilly, hence they spend time and money having Optigen tests done ETC ETC!!

So I very much doubt that you are alone in the lengths you have gone to But with regard to puppy farmers etc you may have a point!

[Jan/Billy]

I doubt that the majority of breeders have gone to the lengths that I have before considering a litter....

I'm actually astounded by that comment!!  

The majority of reputable breeders don't go about things willy nilly, hence they spend time and money having Optigen tests done ETC ETC!!

So I very much doubt that you are alone in the lengths you have gone to

I agree entirely 

[Gilly]

Well how self righteous...you must be a much better breeder/person than I could ever be Tasha 

Must admit, I never really thought about breeding, or showing, or health testing, or taking puppies/adult dogs back, or providing lifetime aftercare, or temperament, or finding perfect homes  NOT!!!!

[Tasha]

oh stop getting your knickers in a twist... self righteous indeed all I'm pointing out is that I have gone to great lengths to find out as much as possible about my particular bitch before breeding and that I as I am sure plenty of other breeders do have made allowances to take back anything that I breed before I am even considering breeding from my bitch...

sorry but the majority of breeders can't say that they can do the same or there would be very little need for rescue, all those dogs come from somewhere and its not just one off or puppy farmers.  I often see dogs coming into rescue that come from excellent kennels with a good reputation but when contacted neither the stud dog owner or the owner of the bitch is interested in the dog and rescue are dumped with it along with the costs attached.

[Tracy S]

I had to sign a contract with  Louie's breeder which stated that if at any time, for whatever reason we didn't feel we could cope, we would take him back to her.

TBH I haven't seen that many Cocker puppies in rescue

[Tasha]

a breeder shouldn't just be taking back puppies they should be taking back any of their progeny.  Majority of dogs that I see come in on average from 1 - 6 years in the dogs and 3 - 9 years on the bitches in one breed. 

[Helen]

so really rachel you are perpetuating the show/worker split as you don't want a gundog with gundog tendencies....well that's how your post reads to me.  I for one like the idea of a working test (it doesn't mean the dog has to work constantly - i questioned Katina on this on another post) as part of the requirements for showing.  After all this was what the gundog was bred originally to do.

To an extent, and I  do think that most breeds now have a working/show/pet split to a greater or lesser degree    It is marked in collies,  many gundog breeds especially spaniels and labradors, and terriers (including Yorkshires)

I wouldn't object to a working test - but if all pedigree dog litters were selectively bred not only for their conformity to standard (as show breeders do) but also their ability in the field (as working dog breeders do, as opposed to the ability to pass a *test*), then I would expect to see far more in rescue - a dog bred with a high working drive does not suit the majority of pet homes

   

the working 'test' is a test in europe and does not require a high working drive, and is not a constant part of the show schedule...if anything it's a general demonstration of field obedience, retrieval and biddability, none of which i would deem an unfavourable trait for a 'pet' home.   

to be honest, i really get sick of the constant referral to field or trialling as your benchmark for a good working cocker - i know that this is different in the show cocker world where showing is very important and i can clearly see the evidence of good breeding on this site    but very very few working cocker breeders trial their dogs - it's evident from the pedigrees that this is happening, as there are far fewer FT CH in recent generations (which i don't think it's a bad thing to be honest as far too many FT CH sires are over-used)

..and that's one of the very few points i agree with on tasha's post before last

and as for cockers in rescue, I would say there has been an increase in BOTH show and working cockers up for rescue in the last year....

[Cob-Web]

I often see dogs coming into rescue that come from excellent kennels with a good reputation but when contacted neither the stud dog owner or the owner of the bitch is interested in the dog and rescue are dumped with it along with the costs attached.

The rescue organisation you are involved with sounds unusual if it contacts the breeder - afaik, a lot of rescues refuse to do so, and there have been cases where a breeder has been refused the option of taking one of the pups back, after it has been signed over to a rescue without their knowledge   

[Cob-Web]

the working 'test' is a test in europe and does not require a high working drive, and is not a constant part of the show schedule...if anything it's a general demonstration of field obedience, retrieval and biddability, none of which i would deem an unfavourable trait for a 'pet' home.   

It seems we agree,  Helen  I don't think that a working *test* is a bad thing at all, as you say, it may well benefit pet owners  But those *tests* will not be a reflection of the dogs ability to *work*, so there would still be two strains , people who need working dogs would select for working ability 

to be honest, i really get sick of the constant referral to field or trialling as your benchmark for a good working cocker -

Do you mean me, particularly, or people generally? If me, then I think I may have worded my posts badly - when I refer to dogs that are proven in the field, I do not mean through trials, or FT CH ancestry-  but through day to day work "in the field" or "to the gun" - or is this not the correct term? 

[kookie]

i think the breed standard could be improved upon.
when my mum started breeding years ago, cockers seemed to be much more 'substancial' I dont know if its me, but they seem to be smaller and more petite thant they ever used to be. I'm not knocking it, but 'show type' cockers seem to have lost the ' working element that they were originally bred for. Dont get me wrong, I love how they look, but i just remember my mums dogs, and the people she mixed with, like Nostrebor, and Helenwood years ago, and they looked like 'working' dogs, but put in the show ring. I agree with all the health checks and so on, but, i just dont know. I just feel that people trying to acheive the 'breed standard' hav unwittingly  caused many of the problems associated with the breed today.

My mums dogs were always big boned, with beautiful heads, but which didnt seem to be as 'domed'.

Some of todays cockers, look more like lapdogs, even though, like you all, I know they arent, and people who think they are going to get a bidable dog may be in for a surprise.
I just think that as long as the health checks  are carried out, unless  the working and the show type cocker are made separate breeds, Oh, i dont know hat i'm trying to say, if anyone is on the same wavelength as me and knows what i'm on about, please,jump in.

[tracey]

a breeder shouldn't just be taking back puppies they should be taking back any of their progeny.  Majority of dogs that I see come in on average from 1 - 6 years in the dogs and 3 - 9 years on the bitches in one breed. 

That's why any puppy I breed has an endorsed K.C registration certificate, progeny not eligible for registration

Tasha you are not alone regarding your breeding ethics all the breeders on this forum act as you do when thinking of breeding a litter. We try to impart those ethics on would be breeders when they decide to breed from their pet bitch, we are then accused of jumping on people for doing so

I go way beyond what is required of me by the k.c when breeding a litter..... so your comments are also insulting to me.

Until the puppy farmers are dealt with then there will always be indiscriminate breeding from untested dogs in all breeds, that's why COL tries to promote responsible breeding and tries to help people to choose a responsible, reputeable breeder when looking for a puppy.

[Jane S]

and as for cockers in rescue, I would say there has been an increase in BOTH show and working cockers up for rescue in the last year....

I would agree with that & it corresponds with the increasing number of Cocker litters being bred (which is why the Cocker has the 2nd highest number of KC registrations next only to the Labrador). You only have to look at the free ad websites and also the KC Puppy Sales Register to see there are hundreds of puppies being advertised for sale at any one time and relatively few are coming from the responsible show/working end of the breeder spectrum. We have a situation where too many people are breeding for the wrong reasons and they're not taking responsibility for the pups they breed which brings us nicely back to the original reason for this thread - why we on COL are always preaching responsible breeding ethics even though we often feel like we are banging our heads against a brick wall

On that note, I will close this thread now as it's now going slightly off topic Karen, if you want to start a new thread on the breed standard, feel free to do so as it's a subject in it's own right really.