Under shot jaw preclude breeding?

[Coco]

If all other factors were perfectly in order (health, ready homes, temperament, ability etc.) would the bitch having an undershot jaw mean she shouldn't be bread from as she is not then 'a perfect specimen'?





Edited to add photos and - Please don't think i'm considering irresponsibly breeding my pet etc, this is more a 'what if' sceneario, just to know if it's 'never going to happen' so to speak.

[Gilly]

I would say yes because she could well throw the exact same fault 

[Jane S]

I agree with Gilly. Sadly an undershot bite is a bad fault for a gundog breed so affected dogs/bitches shouldn't be bred from, no matter how lovely they are in other respects.

[Cazzie]

Yip I agree also, a  dog with an undershot jaw should not be bred from. I had a JRT and when she was a pup she had a slight undershot jaw but as she developed it corrected its self. 

[Helen]

agree with the others, would def not breed from her, she could well pass on this fault

[lyn]

is that an undershot jaw? i thought undershot jaws were much more pronounced than that one guess you learn something new every day.
coco, not getting at you just curious, were you planning to breed at some point? i would be to scared to even think about it. the thought of what can go wrong scares the life out of me. like i said i'm not getting at you i was just thinking the other day what makes people decide to breed from their dogs. i wouldn't even have a clue where to start. then if i did i would have to have ellie living at the vets for the whole pregnancy and even after the pups were born. i just know i wouldn't cope. far to scary.

[Jane S]

Yes that is an undershot bite - not as severe as some I've seen but still definitely undershot. This is such a hard fault to breed out of a line that I really would not take the risk of breeding from a bitch like this.

[Coco]

Firstly, a only added the pics before your post and only after Cazzies comment saying her JRT's corrected itself as it doesn't seem very pronounced to me, (perhaps it has also corrected itself?). It's a little bit like my slight overbite and I'm still going to breed god willing 

I know breeding from non professionals is a contentious issue and given that two of my friends are apparently going to breed from their pets, one being a Cocker, really puts my back up since I can't see their reasons (I've tried but now I'm trying to keep my mouth shut about it    ) I totally appreciate the issues around it.
However... we often have friends ask will we breed her, I'd like one of her pups (offered deposit) and this is working homes, seasoned dog owners (one gamekeeper and one vet included) who know that her pups wouldn't necessarily be like her. I know this is not a good reason and people say it all the time but when it comes down to it they are not serious though I could absolutely guarantee homes for 6 pups.
Also she is on her way to being a really sound gun dog, (the OH still wants to send her to school also )
Please do not take offence to this but...The issue of there being so many rescue dogs around would usually stop me in my tracks before I could even consider it but the people that would take one of her pups would be taking them as a WORKING Cocker and training it actively as such from a pup. I know from our search that Working Cockers in rescue that would make a gun dog are hard to come by.

The OH is all for breeding as his step-mother has had alot of experience with breeding dogs but I'd like to be able to say 'No, never' if that is going to be the case. If we ever did decide to breed form her she would be in very safe hands with the MOL, we count 3 vets among our close friends and socialise with 2 others so although we try to avoid using them and stick to our local vet we would have plenty of advice and hands-on help if required.

She is only young yet, so where near ready for all that so as I say this is more a 'what if' and I am trying to allow my head to rule by finding a reason, and one that the OH can understand, why it should be totally discounted.
In his world (farmers etc) people breed from their own dogs a lot so I don't think he sees it in an objective way.
I come form a slightly different background, we have had plenty of dogs (bitches) in the past that it has never been a consideration with, they were pets and nothing else (in the breeding from sense). It's just easy to get carried away when people put ideas in your head so coming up with a good reason why it could never happen is the easiest way to, as they say, 'just say no'.

I don't want to start a debate on breeding from 'pets', nor the issues around a rescue dog, as I say I understand why it is such a contentious issue

[Helen]

i just don't understand why you would willingly breed a fault in a line of dogs    there are a lot of sound 'working' cockers being bred without faults, why continue a line with potentially bad mouths?

[Coco]

Sorry, I guess I didn't use the right tense in my last post. I was explaining to Lyn why I had considered it and asked the question. No, I won't now. I was trying to find a reason why it should be discounted and this is one.  Finding a conclusive reason for why not to even considering breed from her.

[Helen]

aaaah all clear now, sorry 

[spanielcrazy]

Yes that is an undershot bite - not as severe as some I've seen but still definitely undershot. This is such a hard fault to breed out of a line that I really would not take the risk of breeding from a bitch like this.

Terribly hard to get rid of once it creeps into a line!  I have a bitch here now who was to be shown, her mouth looks just like your dogs. She is spayed 

While in the grand scheme of things a bad bite is a lesser fault it's not something you want to perpetuate. And while a bite like Cocos or Joys doesnt hinder them in any way, you are open to producing a puppy whose jaws are so off that it cannot eat properly 

There is also an (ignorant ) tendency to blame the stud dog for every fault produced, you could be setting someone up for a verbal smearing.

People who say they want puppies, no matter what they promise, have a tendency to evaporate when it comes time for the puppies to go! Many people have found themselves with a house full of 6 month olds that they could not sell and have resorted to desperation measures

If you are truly keen on breeding, get the best bitch you can afford from a top working kennel and tell them what you plan to do with her. Try to get an FTCH on her, to get her out in the public eye and let serious gun dog people see what she can do. Get her hips done, PRA scores, Optigen testing.

Work closely with the breeder on choosing a potential sire for your litter, they will know their lines and know what will work and what won't. They will also be able to steer potential good puppy buyers your way. Their good reputation will be a huge help to you, will add to your credibility and they will be able to pass on a lot of knowledge to you.

[Cob-Web]

I am trying to allow my head to rule by finding a reason, and one that the OH can understand, why it should be totally discounted.
In his world (farmers etc) people breed from their own dogs a lot so I don't think he sees it in an objective way.

Send OH to volunteer at a Rescue Centre for a week, and maybe he'll realise that for every *pet* puppy bred, a potential home for a rescue dog is lost 

[White Bryony]

I didn't know that it was called an 'undershot jaw' but Maddies bottom jaw protrudes a lot further than that but on her 'Breeder Registration Certificate' it says that her Progeny are not eligible for Registration.

[Coco]

I am trying to allow my head to rule by finding a reason, and one that the OH can understand, why it should be totally discounted.
In his world (farmers etc) people breed from their own dogs a lot so I don't think he sees it in an objective way.

Send OH to volunteer at a Rescue Centre for a week, and maybe he'll realise that for every *pet* puppy bred, a potential home for a rescue dog is lost 

I can completely understand what you are saying and if there were no pups there would be more homes but I also think some people are unfortunately not willing nor importantly able to take on a rescue dog, often particularly if it is for working. We searched and searched rescue before getting Wherry, we settled on Wherry and a regular donation to Dogs Trust (who incidentally have a beautiful golden Cocker at the moment) We are about 10 minutes from one of their centers and we also give food at Christmas and blankets etc as and when. Unfortunately what we were looking for was not available to us at the time.

Spanielcrazy, thanks for your information. I agree that very often people say they want a pup and never do when it comes down to it, we've had many friends say it, those I mentioned are the ones we've taken seriously after teasing them that we'd end up with a pack! Though yes, I know nothing is ever set in stone.
Much of what you've said would have been the plan if we could have worked with Wherry, there is a beautiful FTCH red boy who I adore so I had had a few daydreams about that one 

But hey ho, so she will be our beloved girl and I shall daydream no more...now to consider spaying!!  

This is a whole new can of worms but the reason I was asking now is because we were talking about another pup and would have have approached it differently if there was a chance Wherry would ever have one. I wanted to know if it was a 'never ever' situation. I'm most upset that having a sister of hers, which was the most likely option, now seems out of the question also.

Thank you for your replies

Edited for spelling