bad day at the beach

[gayle1]

I have posted this here so as many people get to see it as possible as we have a problem 
Met up at Newton Beach this morning with other south wales col members, first up I want to say it was lovely to meet you all. You and your dogs are lovely   
Secondly.., A HUGE THANKYOU TO JASPER'S DAD  very cool in a crisis!
It started off well, Ella came off lead for the first time and was very good at being called back.., it took three or four goes at times as there were other dogs and she was excited but she came back and that wsa a huge step ahead for us 
It was all going swimmingly well... until Ella got a load of THE BIRDS

[*sammy*]

i don't know what to say really ella really did take off and she was not going to stop for anyone. she is so fast!!
don't feel bad though, i'm sure it's happened to loads of people on here and someone will be along with advice soon

[Cob-Web]

I lot count of the number of times I lost Molo on the beach when he spotted the seagulls - he used to love running full pelt at them, and then would chase them for hours while they were flying around; he often legged it half a mile or more away

There is still one beach I go to that I won't let him off as temptation may just be too much for him - but that doesn't mean that he stays on lead everywhere.

I would suggest you start in a lower distraction environment, possibly on a long-line (NOT an extendi-lead) and do not expect her to recall from high distractions straight away......

When I went on my first COL meet, in Surrey, I was talked into letting Molo offlead and he promptly disappeared without trace for 15 minutes - I was terrified    From then on, I made sure that I knew what his limitations were, and never allowed him to "fail" 

[supaspaniel]

Oh I sympathise, George did that when he was young...which is quite a while ago now. And the trouble with seagulls is they take off, then land again a bit further away so the dogs just keep going I just remember seeing a tiny black and white dot on the horizon
At almost 12 years old, he's not so quick on his feet now, but I think that Aidee has the potential to do something like that

[Taffy Girl]

Gayle,

As you say Ella was doing really well and was enjoying her time with the other dogs. Keep all those positives in your mind.

Perhaps, with hindsight, today was not the best environment for her first time off lead - just too much all at once.  
Please dont be put off by today. Maybe you could try her off lead again soon in a more controlled environment, where you will feel more confident too - such as a small park/field with few distractions and just for short periods at a time.
 
I hope people have some good advice for you.

Good luck

Lisa x

[gayle1]

That did not all come out.., do not know what happened.
I will have to start again,

[Helen]

I really don't think this is 'bad' behaviour nor do I find it at all abnormal - most young dogs will chase after birds if they have the opportunity.....was she about to run out on a road? Even though she was miles away was she safe?  The beach is usually ok for a dog to run and run and run - I do admit to letting Jarv run after seagulls  - the difference being I actually give him permission to do it, and he will come back to a whistle command.

In this situation I doubt whether calling her would have worked...for most dogs if the are hellbent on chasing something then unless you have a very well trained stop and a very well trained recall command, you have no chance.  I have been in this situation with another friends working cocker and the best recourse was just to get a bit closer so he could hear when we eventually did call him.  When all the birds disappeared and he caught our eye we called him really excitedly and ran the other way acting like excited loons...he came back.  The more you call her in this situation the more the command means less to her -  that's all she will hear...and the command will be pointless as she is not coming back to 1 or 20 calls.  Also, if you are getting frustrated and stressed she will pick it up, and why would she come back if she will be 'in trouble' (no dog wants to intentionally displease you so I mean trouble as in being yelled at..or ignored...or told off).  One of the best pieces of advice my trainer gave me when training recall was only to recall when you know your dog is going to come back...and that is when she turns around and looks at you usually, or even when she's on the way back to you...and always

The more you are afraid to let her off lead the more stressful training her will be...find somewhere safe and enclosed and practice recall. Understand that you will have setbacks, but you have to ease up on her and yourself.  She is a young active dog that needs a LOT of stimulation and exercise which she is probably not getting being on a lead constantly.  You have at least another 6 months to a year of this kind of behaviour - I don't think she will 'settle' until she is at least 2 years old.

[Nicola]

If she's not trained on a 100% stop and/or recall signal then taking her to a beach with lots of other dogs and birds and letting her off the lead will be too much temptation for her. As Helen says, it's not abnormal for her to have done this at all. I think in this case the problem was simply that you expected too much of her.

Being a sprocker she is a working bred dog. They have very high levels of drive and if this isn't channelled constructively then they are prone to channelling it into things like chasing. Alfie went through a phase of this when he was younger and it took me a lot of work to get him out of it, it was very difficult and frustrating and incredibly hard work but we got there eventually.

You need to work on her recall in controlled situations until it is 110%, possibly with use of a long line at first. This can take a long time, months rather than days or weeks and you have to be very careful in this time to keep her under control at all times because every time she gets a chance to chase or run away and not come back it sets things back hugely and it becomes harder to reach the previous level again.

[gayle1]

We were at THE BIRDS
Anyway, we ran over beach, rocks, into water, over rocks again.
Finally I got close enough to her and called her and she seemed to 'snap' back to attention and came right away, sitting at my feet.
I did not scold her or use a 'bad tone' I told her she was a good girl and gave her some chicken and put her on the lead.

When I caught up again with my youngest, she was crying because she thought Ella was never going to come back.

We left early because I was trying but failing to keep a lid on things, I was quite shook up and a bit upset.

I have had Ella since she was 9 weeks and have done everything consistantly that I have been advised to do by her qualified member of the whatsit trainer, the clicker trainer, Gareth this new trainer and I was thinking on the drive home that all three have given the same advice with the exception of the water bags which we did just once.
I could go back to the qualified trainer, but in honesty, I have sunk sundreds into training fees and we have just ended up where we are today, that being not that far up the training ladder! We will be advised to carry on doing the same and I am frustrated.

Ella would have taken off after the horses today had she not been on the lead and she was making inroads for the birds all the way back to the car.
She barked all the way home.
We stopped for coffee and Ohhhh...., the shame.., a police car pulled up next to us in the car park and all three of us humans were covered in sand, muck and water and Ella looked like we had tried to drown then bury her as she sat wrapped in a towel.., she barked at the police men.., she barked at the cool guy and his HARLEY we looked like the local hillbillies!

She has been barking all afternoon, all evening.
I play games with her, I am home all day, I stuff kongs for her, I fill old toilet rolls with treats I hide things for her, I go through the sit, stay, bed, lie down basics.., I try really hard with her.

To me she reminds me of a hyper child.., there is no end to her energy!

I walk her twice a day I have been recalling on a long line for 2 weeks. I have looked for a place where she can get off lead and run fenced in out of the home but can not find one place.

I am terrified of letting her off lead again.
I can't see her ever off lead until she is too old to run fast.

I need some help.
Gayle

[Cob-Web]

Gayle - Molo was long line trained for a year before his recall was reliable at a COL meet - did you honestly think that you would have perfectly trained dog at a few months old??

Stop sinking money into training that you think will give you a quick fix, and start investing time and patience instead, and you WILL see a difference, but it will not be this week, this month, or even this year -you are investing in the next 12 - 15 years of your dogs llife, and it will not happen overnight 

I have no idea why you were ashamed to be seen after a walk - you own a working gundog so you should expect to get wet, muddy, dirty and bedraggled - if it isn't fun for you, then it isn't fun for Ella and maybe a less "outdoors'y" breed would suit you


I'm sorry if you think this is unfair - but you have been given the same advice repeatedly over the last few weeks, and yet you still seem to expect Ella to be a "perfect" dog  overnight, with minimal investment on your part.  Puppies are hard work, and a working strain pup is more of a challenge than many people (including me) would be prepared to take on.  Please, please listen to the advice you have been given and lower your expectations so that you can enjoy Ella and Ella can enjoy being a puppy 

[Pammy]

It might seem harsh but I do tend to agree with Rachel. Your experience today is nothing out of the ordinary for most dog owners - certainly one I can identify with.

It takes time and perseverence to train your dog and some will never do a 100% recall. But shelling out money does not train your dog - only you can do that and changing your techniques and trainers simply confuses the dog and undoes any work you have done.

Don't be too hard on her or yourself though. I remember making a post some years ago now when Buddy was young and he chased a lamb. I was beside myself. He will still chase sheep - so he never gets the opportunity - but it does not mean he never gets to go off lead. Just not where sheep are(and he chases birds and nearly got himself in serious trouble chasing sea gulls on a beach once too)

[Nicola]

I don't mean this to sound harsh at all either but did you really know what you were letting yourself in for when you got a working bred gundog? They really are not easy and I know there are some on here who don't agree with me but that is why I really genuinely don't think that they make good pets for the average pet home.

Ella sounds very much like Alfie, my 20 month old dog - endless energy, always switched on, always on the go and not an easy dog at all. Walking Alfie is very seldom a relaxing experience and I have to be on top of him pretty much all the time but I work my dogs and have always wanted working type dogs so that's fine for me. I would be willing to bet that if Alfie had gone to a home who were just looking for a nice pet spaniel at 8 weeks he would not still be there. He'd probably be on home number 2 or 3 by now.

I do agree with what the others have said about persevering at training and not expecting miracle quick fixes but I can't help but think there may be a basic incompatibility with what you want/expect in a dog and what you've got with a high-drive working bred dog.

[Helen]

agree with Pammy, Rachel and Nicola

I have to ask - what did you expect a gundog puppy to be like? 

In all honesty I think you are almost frightened of Ella (frightened of not knowing how she will react in certain situations, of potentially her getting hurt because she won't come back, of not knowing how to interact with her and 'read' what she is going to do, and of what other people think of your dog and therefore you...), and because you are getting upset and stressed about her she is picking up your fear and stress and it's turning into a vicious cycle.

I'm sorry you are finding her so difficult , I really am but I can't help but feel that she is confused and stressed and you are trying so many things to try and 'fix' her quickly that she probably doesn't know what she should be doing.  It does sadden me when you say things about her embarrassing you....she is a dog - they are not little humans, they don't think/respond/understand the way we do...and so what if you're muddy, so what if she barks, so what if her recall is bad at present...it's all part of dog ownership.  I also find it incredibly sad that you can't trust her offlead....she needs offlead exercise and will only get worse and more frustrated  if you and she can't find the key to achieving this...is there not a tennis court you could hire for an hour somewhere?  A fenced field you could ask to use?

Ella needs calm, consistent training...and it will take a long time, and it will be part and parcel to have many bad days for a long time but she does have the potential to have more and more good days. She's not a bad dog

[Top Barks]

My Bayley is well trained, no Bl**dy well trained and in most environments will return on the whistle 100 % of the time.
This has taken over a year and lots of hard work.
I Still use a long line on him in certain situations like Col Meets for instance as I feel I have to work him when I'm out with him or he will lose focus and be off doing his own thing.
On a col meet I can't give him that focus so more often than not he goes on the line so I can have a chat and relax.
I am not ashamed that i am a bad trainer because of this, on the contrary I feel I am a sensible trainer who knows the limitations of his dog in certain situations.
Personally I would not let your dog chase birds or you will create problems for yourself.
Go back to basics and by your self a 10 metre long line and a harness until you have a reliable recall. (do a search on here for recall there's lots of threads)
What has your trainer suggested?
working spaniels are not easy dogs in fact they are very challenging which is why I like them, you need to channel the energy somehow so you enjoy your dog.
Is she old enough for agility?
There also is no need to be ashamed if your dog goes running off chasing birds on the beach as spaniel owners will have seen it all before and If they are like me will have made the same mistakes as you have.
Welcome to the wonderful world of owning a  working spaniel.
Mark

[gayle1]

Well. that was a mixed bag of comments.
First up to Rachel and Nicola...
your opinions are your opinions, but let me straighten you out on a few of your points...,

I was and am well aware of what breed Ella is and how much work is involved with her. I GOT HER FOR THOSE REASONS. I did not want a dog that grew too large for our home, I did not want one I could slip into a bag under my arm. I did not trot out of my house one day thinking, 'today I think I will get a dog.., now which one shall I choose?'
I NEVER LOOKED AT ELLA, THE BREED, THROUGH ROSE TINTED GLASSES. I did not get her to show her, I did not get her with a high level of expectancy to have her perform in a pleasing manner, enter her into competitions or to just have her sit and look pretty in the house.
Before having her I studied breeds of dogs, I settled on a spaniel. I studied the difference in the show dog v the working strain. I TOOK ADVICE FROM DOG OWNERS, SPANIEL OWNERS, I LISTENED AND I EDUCATED MYSELF I LOOKED AT MY FAMILY LIFE, MY HOME, MY KIDS, MY TIME. I am not an idiot that believed any old spaniel would do and now find myself scratching my head in annoyance or frustration as she will not 'toe the line'. I resent those implications as neither one of you women know me or know my home life and how we function here. You have taken up on a few posts where I have been frustrated and upset after long hard days, which is only natural given how much I do love Ella and you have come to the conclusion that I want to throw money at her and have somebody else do the hard work of training her, while I what..? Bring her home and lock her in the kitchen thinking I need not make an effort with her as a trainer has done that for me, I paid for it so that is where my responsibility ends?
I was NOT ASHAMED to be seen dirty and wet.., I was ATTEMPTING HUMOR AT THAT POINT OF THE POST. We looked a right sight outside that coffee place, IT WAS FUNNY. Not ashamed in the hang my head, hide in a corner I want to die way, ashamed in the Oh, great.., two hot cops and a man on what can only be described as the best bike in the world.., where the heck are my high heals and makeup bag when I need them?
I am very sorry if you do not find that funny.., but I did and mentioned it in the humor sense not any other sense. Obviously your sense of humor is not the same as mine. But that is fine.

Sorry to have bored you Rachel with asking for the same advice and being given it repeatedly.., but know this.., I do not expect a quick fix with Ella, I do and have listened to advice given to me on here and a lot of it has paid off.., are we not meant to have a moan when a day goes badly incase people think we are not listening and paying attention and are only after 'a quick fix?' I am well aware this is a long term investment with Ella and that changes do not happen overnight. I am not stupid. IAnd I actually invest far, far more than the 'minimal' time and energy with Ella. A damn sight more than a lot of dog owners I see about, so that I deeply, deeply resent.

I was not ashamed that Ella took off, I was frightened, my daughter was in tears, we left mainly for that reason, her asthma was playing up as a result.
You have both got myself and my dog completely wrong.

Ella is not confused or stressed.., she knows boundaries around the home, she is a happy dog apart from the not being able to run off lead right no and that will come. I AM LOOKING FOR A PLACE SHE CAN BE OFF LEAD BUT IT IS NOT AN EASY TASK. I AM FULLY AWARE THAT SHE NEEDS THIS AND AM ONTO IT.
Thats all I have to say to you.
You were not inthe position I was yesterday, I am sure you have been before, but you are not me and have not walked my shoes this year so therefore have no grounds for such condescending remarks.




I wanted a dog that could run with me, hike with me,