Is this normal? Or a bad pup :(

[Julie82]

Last night my ten week old cocker pup went Nuts!
 

I was trying to stop her nipping and jumping on my wee Jack Russell when he came over to say hello and she protest. She started running round and round us, then trying to lunge at him and round around again making this awful growling noise. Every time I tried to snap her out of it and stop her jumping on him it got worse. My other wee dog wanted to run away, but I was determined he would stay, she would stop and everyone would behave.

 
Eventually I scruffed her and got her on her side, but she protested, then stopped (or pretended to), I let her go and off she went again like a puppy on Red Bull. The second time I put her on her side until she settled the other dog ran off and she settled down.
 
Is this normal?? It was obviously directed at my wee dog, who can be pretty nervous at times.  He does play with her when he wants to and when she gets too much he firmly puts her in her place. But I wanted to pet both of them without her trying to jump and rough house with him. (Trying to Cesar Millan stuff – I am the Pack Leader and when I say leave the other dog alone you respect me, see the other dog is mine and don’t touch it or my things until I say).
 

I was on my bum/ knees during this and had the other dog right with me. Maybe the pushes (or Cesar Millan bites) I was trying to stop her were only making her worse?
 

Obviously I did something wrong. But is this normal for a puppy to get this over excited and aggressive? I have had a couple of puppies before but don’t remember any being quiet so crazy.
 

Is there something anyway I should act if this happens again – what does everyone recommend when the play biting gets out of hand or your puppy gets over excited like this with another dog?
 

She is a confident and stubborn at times wee girl, but she is learning good things fast and bad things, so want to nip this behaviour in the bud before she thinks it is fun to do or ok.
 

Has anyone any advice? Is this normal

[JennyBee]

Sorry but scruffing your dog and pinning her to the ground will not help your puppy, and will just reinforce to her that bad things happen when your other dog is around . Pack and dominance theory was disproved years ago and even the people who first came up with the concept now don't believe in it. Far better to build a trusting bond with your pup instead of possibly making her fear you..... The book 'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson is excellent at pointing out how dogs minds really work

She does need to learn how to behave with your other dog, normally the older dog will let the pup know when things are getting too rough and teach them how to behave, dogs are far better at teaching pups on these things than humans are . If things are getting too much for your older dog, then a houseline would be useful for keeping the pup away - always make sure the older dog has somewhere puppy-free he can go to if he needs a rest from the pup. I'm not an expert when it comes to owning more than one dog though so hopefully someone will come along with clearer advice

Welcome to the forum, btw

[Julie82]

Thanks for the advice. I was taking the scruffing and put to the side from Cesar (I didn't flig her in the air or anything - I was gentle - and know scruffing has a great calming effect on pups as their mums do it? Am I wrong there?)  but see at lot of people on this forum rejecting his methods so will have to research your suggestion

I am open to all suggestions and advice (that obviously does not hurt my pup as she is a little cutie too)

[Karma]

As JennyBee has said, the whole "Being the Pack Leader" is discreditted amongst most modern thinking dog trainers and behaviourists... Cesar Millan has no training in dog behaviour, and there are many campaigns from animal welfare groups to stop his shows because they encourage owners to use outdated methods in inappropriate circumstances.

There is one sentance you posted that I want to highlight....

 He does play with her when he wants to and when she gets too much he firmly puts her in her place.

Why do you need to intervene if your Jack Russel is happy to teach her how to behave??
Dogs do a much better job of teaching puppies what is and isn't acceptable than humans ever can.  

In general, and to answer some of your concerns... yes, this behaviour is perfectly normal.  It's not aggression, but normal puppy play.  Ensure your older dog can get away for some peace and quiet when he wants to, and don't force them to interact.  
If I had a dog who wasn't able to teach the boundaries appropriately, I would use a house line, as JennyBee suggested, so you can seperate them without getting into a confrontation.

And, yes, you attempting to scruff (or do cesar millan bites) to control your pup CAN make things worse.  It can make your pup handshy, nervous of you, or cause her to associate the presence of your older dog with this punishment and lead to the potential for aggression (rather than just play - in the mind of a pup "Mum got really cross last time I played with you, I'm going to warn you to stay away so Mum doesn't get cross again").  Obviously not every dog reacts like this, but the potential is always there.  I know a lot of dog trainers, and they say they get most of their business from the need to undo the damage caused by people following dominance/pack based training methods with their dogs.  

I've just seen your reply, and wanted to add that Bitches DON'T scruff their pups to discipline them - this is one of the fundamental untruths which goes to the heart of the problems with pack theory.... I don't want to clutter this thread with a discussion on this, as I'm sure you'll find the previous debates  and I'm sure it's more helpful to keep this on topic. 

Welcome to COL!! Hope you find lots of useful info on here! 

[Nicola]

. Maybe the pushes (or Cesar Millan bites) I was trying to stop her were only making her worse?

They probably were. She was already wound up so pushing her or nipping at her (as I believe that's what a CM 'bite' is) was only likely to make her more wound up and more reactive. Longer term this risks making her handshy and nervous of you. Physically forcing your dog to the ground and holding it there is not a good way to build a trusting bond between you. What CM tends to refer to as 'calm submission' is actually dogs shutting down through fear, anxiety and confusion. Doing things like this to your dog can make them confused and fearful and there is also a very real risk of the dog becoming aggressive through fear, that's why there is a 'don't try this at home' warning on CM's TV show, it's because confrontational, aversive training methods can very easily backfire. Far better to use positive methods which let you work together with your dog, maintain the bond of trust between you and - best of all - they actually work and there's no risk of them backfiring on you or your dog. It takes time, repetition and patience to train a puppy using positive methods but they really do work.

. My other wee dog wanted to run away, but I was determined he would stay, she would stop and everyone would behave.

Why? Your older dog was making it obvious he wasn't happy so why force him to stay in that situation? And likewise the puppy was already wound up so why try to force her into calming down? Forcing them to be together is not going to build a positive relationship between them on either side, your older dog will associate the puppy with stress and she will associate him with being scruffed and pinned to the floor.

As far as the interactions between the puppy and older dog go the dogs themselves are by far the best ones to sort this out. What she was doing is fairly normal behaviour from a young puppy. Most adult dogs are very tolerant of pups and will put up with a lot from them, it's called 'puppy licence' but as you've seen with your own adult dog most will put a puppy in its place if and when it oversteps the mark. It sounds like your older dog is already doing a good job of this and the best thing to do is to leave them to get on with it and let the puppy learn dog manners and appropriate behaviour from the other dog while still respecting his need to have space if he wants it (by ensuring that he can always get away from the pup if he chooses to and he has a quiet place of his own to go to).

If things are getting out of hand then as Jennybee has said a houseline is a good, non-confrontational way for you to be able to calmly remove the puppy from the situation. If she starts to get really wound up (and puppies sometimes do, this is normal) then either ignore her completely or if that's not possible calmly and quietly lead her away and give her a brief time out period to cool off. I don't know if you already have one but a crate or playpen can be a very useful tool, it should never be used as a punishment but as somewhere safe the puppy can go to get a bit of downtime and to give you and your older dog a bit of space too!

As well as The Culture Clash this is another book you might want to look at, actually it's more of a booklet as it's very short and easy to read:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dominance-Fact-Fiction-Barry-Eaton/dp/0953303934

A very interesting and worthwhile book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Other-End-Leash-Patricia-McConnell/dp/034544678X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279557305&sr=1-1

And this is a good general training book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Positive-Training-Lifestyle-Paperback/dp/1592574831

ETA I started this post and then came back to it so hadn't already seen Karma's response.

[mooching]

How old is your JRT and does he have any medical/health issues?

My only suggestion so far is to ditch anything you learned from Cesar Milan and listen to Karma, JennyBee and Nicola!

[JeffandAnnie]

She started running round and round us, then trying to lunge at him and round around again making this awful growling noise. Is this normal

Absolutely, and very cute (well, I think it is!). It is also likely to get much worse and she will seem more "agressive" as she gets older (at least until she's about a year old or maybe more), but it really is just play, and your JR needs to be left to your pup in her place (with you watching so you can separate them if things do get out of hand) so they can settle into their relationship. Your JR will probably snap at the pup (i.e. snarl, bare teeth, maybe bark/growl and nip) when he's had enough, and this should be enough to deter her; if he actually goes for her (tries to seriously bite her or take a hold of her) this is the time to split them up so neither get injured. Other than that, as the others say - bin the CM claptrap and work on positive reinforcement training 

[september]

My only suggestion so far is to ditch anything you learned from Cesar Milan and listen to Karma, JennyBee and Nicola!

Agree also!  Sounds like she was as we term it in our house 'having a moment'!!! ie running round and round bouncing off the walls and laminate going 'grrr, grr, grr' I have found that the best thing to do is get out the way 'cos she has a habit of nipping toes as she goes!! Roxy is 3 now and doesn't have 'moments' very often now!  Drying her off after a wet walk still sets her off and when she comes down wet after having a bath!!

She once 'had a moment' at agility and I just had to let her get on with it!!     

Hope the advice works, I wouldn't worry too much about it

[Karma]

She once 'had a moment' at agility and I just had to let her get on with it!!     

Honey doesn't often do the mad racing around.... though when she is very wet is often a very good prompt!!!
But I was mortified when she decided to race around like a loon in the middle of our obedience lesson... with all the owners of the perfectly behaved collies just standing watching....    (The Toller owner was more sympathetic to my plight!!!)

[mooching]

My 13wk old pup Alfie is only half cocker and yet he does the mad racing round and lunging thing as well! He has several "tracks" that he has worked out for himself, various figures of eight, or ever decreasing or increasing circles, depending on his mood. We just let him get on with it and wait till he is done!

[Hurtwood Dogs]

You've had some really good replies...

I've had a pup that did what yours is doing, yes it is normal and the best way to deal with it is to make a nice space where you can separate the pup when it becomes too much. You don't have to 'win' when she's like this just give her a place to calm down and she will grow out of it - it took my boy nearly a year but he's lovely now, really lovely. He hated any confrontation and it sounds like your little girl does too so don't do it, just show her kindness, quietly separate her when she's being too much and she'll gradually start to learn what sort of behaviour means she can stay with you all and she'll also learn to trust you. It won't happen overnight and may take up to a year if she's anything like my pup was but if you're kind - which means rejecting anything you've watched Cesar Milan do, you will end up with a dog that trusts you. My terror puppy is now a very kind dog and I totally trust him with my children (aged 1 and 7).

I can only echo what others have said about Cesar's methods and outdated pack theory, treating dogs like that really is not necessary and can cause serious trust and/or behaviour issues also. I prefer my dogs to do stuff for me because they want to, enjoy it and are rewarded for it... not because they are scared of me .

[beebee]

You have had some excellent advice on this thread please keep us updated with how things are going.

[Coco]

Agree with those that say it'd normal, mine was the same with her big 'sister'. I also agree that you should let them sort it out for themselves. Your JRT will know the score

[Mel]

Tali had one of these wall of death moments the other day, like Honey he had just had a bath. He was growling and bouncing off of the settee and smashing himself around his den and flying up the hall. I just stood back and let him get on with it. Trying to stop him results in a hand chomp.

Just editing to say what has been said about letting your JRT move away from the situation is vital. Your JRT will give off natural 'warning', 'calming' and 'putting pup in it's place' signals which only a dog can. Also if the JRT is restricted from moving, he may get fearful himself and may snap at the pup or more likely you. Watch how your JRT responds and reacts now and right up til pups first year as currently pup has puppy license and will be given more leeway than in a few months time.

[PennyB]

Tali had one of these wall of death moments the other day, like Honey he had just had a bath. He was growling and bouncing off of the settee and smashing himself around his den and flying up the hall. I just stood back and let him get on with it.

I've often stood back when foster pups go through this as half the time they're not listening either - if ever its become a problem at any point then I just distract them to do something else but usually I just let them run out of steam.