Thoughts on half check collars?

[Silver Surfer (indiesnan)]

We used a half check on Nell (lab) because she had an uncanny nack of backing out of her collar and charging off to say hello to anyone and everyone   it kept her safe that was the main thing, we never had a problem with it hurting her neck while we were using it.

[Karma]

I definately agree it depends on what it is being used for... if it's for convenience of getting lead back on, there's no issue at all. 
If it's being used as a training tool I'm rather more sceptical... especially for puppies.    The classes I help at insist on flat collar and lead for loose lead walking, and owners can use a harness for other exercises if they would prefer... 

[praia]

You're never supposed to yank a dog's neck around with either the check or half check.

No, but unfortunately, this is how they mostly end up being used.... The 'snap' that is supposed to press on the nerves behind a dogs ears when a normal check chain is high up on a dogs neck is very difficult to get right and obviously with a half check doesn't happen at all, which is what he was talking about... hence the half check being a soft option gimmick that is likely to end up being misused.

[/quote]

All training tools can be misused.  Just because some people are too stupid to read directions and use a tool appropriately  doesn't mean that a tool is entirely worthless.  Even a flat buckle collar can do serious damage to a dog's trachea, much more than a check chain or a half check ever could because of their position on the neck and because with these tools pressure is distributed more evenly around the dog's entire neck.  Even halti and gentle leader head collars can damage dog's eyes, seriously injure necks and spines, and in one case I've personally heard of from someone who worked rescue, killed a dog when it lunged while having a head collar on.  Every tool is capable of doing more harm than good and it's every dog owners personal responsibility to educate themselves on how to use them correctly and appropriately. 

In this specific case, I feel that using a half check would be completely inappropriate on a puppy.  For other cases, as long as it's used correctly and appropriately, i think do whatever you think is best for your dog.

I suppose things with the K9 unit are different here in the US.  Personally, I'm fine with the training methods they use for their dogs, though there's no reason to use the same correction levels needed on a working line GSD or a Belgian Malinois on a Cocker Spaniel. Those are dogs with different temperaments and mid levels of social aggression, different drives (prey, fight, and defense drives), and hardness in character that require specialized training.  My personal understanding of dogs trained for this field is from people who train personal protection and military patrol dogs.  At least here in the US, proper working GSDs and Malinois must be purchased overseas as proven lines here for these fields of work are nonexistent.  Of course, all these dogs can be retired to appropriate homes as dogs in this field must have stable temperaments, solid nerves, and be clear headed to work in the first place. 

[Hurtwood Dogs]

You're never supposed to yank a dog's neck around with either the check or half check.

No, but unfortunately, this is how they mostly end up being used.... The 'snap' that is supposed to press on the nerves behind a dogs ears when a normal check chain is high up on a dogs neck is very difficult to get right and obviously with a half check doesn't happen at all, which is what he was talking about... hence the half check being a soft option gimmick that is likely to end up being misused.

All training tools can be misused.  Just because some people are too stupid to read directions and use a tool appropriately  doesn't mean that a tool is entirely worthless.  Even a flat buckle collar can do serious damage to a dog's trachea, much more than a check chain or a half check ever could because of their position on the neck and because with these tools pressure is distributed more evenly around the dog's entire neck.  Even halti and gentle leader head collars can damage dog's eyes, seriously injure necks and spines, and in one case I've personally heard of from someone who worked rescue, killed a dog when it lunged while having a head collar on.  Every tool is capable of doing more harm than good and it's every dog owners personal responsibility to educate themselves on how to use them correctly and appropriately.  

In this specific case, I feel that using a half check would be completely inappropriate on a puppy.  For other cases, as long as it's used correctly and appropriately, i think do whatever you think is best for your dog.

I suppose things with the K9 unit are different here in the US.  Personally, I'm fine with the training methods they use for their dogs, though there's no reason to use the same correction levels needed on a working line GSD or a Belgian Malinois on a Cocker Spaniel. Those are dogs with different temperaments and mid levels of social aggression, different drives (prey, fight, and defense drives), and hardness in character that require specialized training.  My personal understanding of dogs trained for this field is from people who train personal protection and military patrol dogs.  At least here in the US, proper working GSDs and Malinois must be purchased overseas as proven lines here for these fields of work are nonexistent.  Of course, all these dogs can be retired to appropriate homes as dogs in this field must have stable temperaments, solid nerves, and be clear headed to work in the first place.  
[/quote]

Ah, I didn't realise you were in the US, yes I'm sure it is very different there to the UK. Could you eleborate on the bit I've highlighted, I'm interested know what you mean?

With regard to the general misuse of any training tool, I totally agree.. but it's the association with a check chain (which most people don't know how to use 'correctly' anyway) that leads to problems with a half check IF it's bought and used as a corrective collar.

[praia]

Regarding my comment on correction levels, I wrote that in response to you saying that you didn't like most of the methods used to train police dogs and would never use them with your own dogs.  I use the same training method as a gentleman I know who trains personal protection dogs - teach with positive reinforcement, proof behaviors with corrections.  We follow the same basic principle of balance and fairness, of being as gentle as possible, but as firm as necessary; but the firmness of the corrections he is sometimes required to give to his dogs would be outright cruelty if used on my own. 

If bred true to type, GSDs and Malinois are hard dogs and Cocker Spaniels are soft dogs.  What may be required to correct a hard dog would make a soft dog exhibit avoidance behavior and completely shut down.  Normally a firm word from me is a good enough correction for my spaniel.  A firm word would not work on a working type GSD that is operating in fight drive mode (fight drive meaning the dog knows it can take down a grown man and it wants to do so/he loves the fight and knows that he can win it), firmly latched onto a bite work helper, and won't out when told by his handler.  When you have a high drive hard dog, higher levels of compulsion are sometimes required to correct and control a dog.

[Helen]

All training tools can be misused.  Just because some people are too stupid to read directions and use a tool appropriately  doesn't mean that a tool is entirely worthless.  Even a flat buckle collar can do serious damage to a dog's trachea, much more than a check chain or a half check ever could because of their position on the neck and because with these tools pressure is distributed more evenly around the dog's entire neck.  Even halti and gentle leader head collars can damage dog's eyes, seriously injure necks and spines, and in one case I've personally heard of from someone who worked rescue, killed a dog when it lunged while having a head collar on.  Every tool is capable of doing more harm than good and it's every dog owners personal responsibility to educate themselves on how to use them correctly and appropriately. 

I couldn't agree more there - so many times I see dogs choking themselves on flat collars but because it's not a check chain then it's not harming the dog 

My brother has always used check chains as collars on his working labs.  I don't like it at all but in all the years he's had dogs, he has barely needed to 'check' them (and uses flat collars when pups) ..and Labs imho are a different kettle of fish to train than cockers 

I walked his lab while I was home and the check was loose the entire time, even when other dogs were approaching and she saw her nemesis, a cat    I'd like to have comparison x-rays of her neck and the neck of a dog that pulls like a train 

I guess he uses this tool, no matter how abhorrent to some, in the correct manner.  He doesn't use them on pups btw, it's more in his eyes like a slip lead (which is a tool that can be misused too).

If bred true to type, GSDs and Malinois are hard dogs and Cocker Spaniels are soft dogs.  What may be required to correct a hard dog would make a soft dog exhibit avoidance behavior and completely shut down.  Normally a firm word from me is a good enough correction for my spaniel. 

too true - Jarv is a softy and on the very very odd occasions I've had to REALLY yell at him (ie when he was an adolescent and was running towards a railway line) he acts as if he's been beaten.  A firm word and lots of encouragement is enough for him, he's a sensitive soul.   

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Regarding my comment on correction levels, I wrote that in response to you saying that you didn't like most of the methods used to train police dogs and would never use them with your own dogs.  I use the same training method as a gentleman I know who trains personal protection dogs - teach with positive reinforcement, proof behaviors with corrections.  We follow the same basic principle of balance and fairness, of being as gentle as possible, but as firm as necessary; but the firmness of the corrections he is sometimes required to give to his dogs would be outright cruelty if used on my own. 

If bred true to type, GSDs and Malinois are hard dogs and Cocker Spaniels are soft dogs.  What may be required to correct a hard dog would make a soft dog exhibit avoidance behavior and completely shut down.  Normally a firm word from me is a good enough correction for my spaniel.  A firm word would not work on a working type GSD that is operating in fight drive mode (fight drive meaning the dog knows it can take down a grown man and it wants to do so/he loves the fight and knows that he can win it), firmly latched onto a bite work helper, and won't out when told by his handler.  When you have a high drive hard dog, higher levels of compulsion are sometimes required to correct and control a dog.

My personal experience (not just thoughts, vague opinions on the whole thing) with police methods and the reason for my comment about not using police methods on my dogs, is based on a number of techniques that were discussed with me to resolve issues with my rescue Weimaraner - not my cocker.

She's not a GSD of course, but Weimaraners are a dog that have been trialed (unsuccessfully) as an alternative to GSD police dogs in this country (I don't know about the states) because of some similar attributes they have. She is a big strong 32 Kilo dog with a very very strong prey drive which on the odd occasion early on was directed at people (strangers that made her uncomfortable) as well as other dogs - although she's never bitten and never been taught to bite obviously. As a Weimeraner from working stock, she also has a very strong hunt drive. Her natural state when out and about tends to be hyper alert and very pumped up, she also has had serious fear aggression issues too.

The methods discussed with me by the police trainer to work on her, involved an element of shouting and dominating her (which my dog will take, but it certainly doesn't get the best out of her) and addressing two of the main problems that I needed help with (prey lunging and fear aggression) with choke chain correction. As discussed earlier, she was in a half check when I rehomed her and this is when I was told about half checks and it was suggested she be put into a full check chain. With one technique discussed, the check chain was to be attached to a long line and when the dog reacted she would be checked and possibly bought down with it.... that was when I walked away. I agree very much that different dogs need to be handled in different ways, and when I really need my Weims attention if she's not on a lead, even now, I will shout and use an 'I mean business' voice - I have to, to snap her out of the very focused state she gets into at times (she will actively 'stalk' and lunge if not stopped).

I questioned what you'd said because partly, you were very vague in your post and also because I've resolved the issues with my dog (to the best they'll be given her start in life), without the 'hard' handling I was offered by the police dog trainer from the Met (Metropolitan Force - which is our London police force). Which surely for a family dog, is without doubt the best way, rather than the type of police handling/training I've been exposed to? I've managed her by instilling different behaviours and reactions to certain situations with distraction and reward based training - it is now an ingrained behaviour and one I'm very proud of achieving with her through a lot of hard work. From what I saw of her early on, some of the 'hard handling' and aversive techniques used by police trainers here did sometimes stop her in her tracks, but didn't work if you weren't attached to her at the time, it didn't change her behaviour for the better long term and only heightened her tendency to be pumped up and stressed. None of this would have given me the reliable dog I needed.

All this came up because of my comment on half check collars which was as I said, from this particular police dog trainer which you suggested probably wasn't from anyone that had any real experience of training police dogs... You've been talking about training in the states and generalising about my comments based on your experience and a police handling unit in a different country that appears to be very different to my experiences. So I stand by everything I've said - including the information I added to this post on half check collars as a training tool.

[praia]

Regarding my comment on correction levels, I wrote that in response to you saying that you didn't like most of the methods used to train police dogs and would never use them with your own dogs.  I use the same training method as a gentleman I know who trains personal protection dogs - teach with positive reinforcement, proof behaviors with corrections.  We follow the same basic principle of balance and fairness, of being as gentle as possible, but as firm as necessary; but the firmness of the corrections he is sometimes required to give to his dogs would be outright cruelty if used on my own. 

If bred true to type, GSDs and Malinois are hard dogs and Cocker Spaniels are soft dogs.  What may be required to correct a hard dog would make a soft dog exhibit avoidance behavior and completely shut down.  Normally a firm word from me is a good enough correction for my spaniel.  A firm word would not work on a working type GSD that is operating in fight drive mode (fight drive meaning the dog knows it can take down a grown man and it wants to do so/he loves the fight and knows that he can win it), firmly latched onto a bite work helper, and won't out when told by his handler.  When you have a high drive hard dog, higher levels of compulsion are sometimes required to correct and control a dog.

She's not a GSD of course, but Weimaraners are a dog that have been trialed (unsuccessfully) as an alternative to GSD police dogs in this country (I don't know about the states) because of some similar attributes they have. She is a big strong 32 Kilo dog with a very very strong prey drive which on the odd occasion early on was directed at people (strangers that made her uncomfortable) as well as other dogs - although she's never bitten and never been taught to bite obviously. As a Weimeraner from working stock, she also has a very strong hunt drive. Her natural state when out and about tends to be hyper alert and very pumped up, she also has had serious fear aggression issues too.

The methods discussed with me by the police trainer to work on her, involved an element of shouting and dominating her (which my dog will take, but it certainly doesn't get the best out of her) and addressing two of the main problems that I needed help with (prey lunging and fear aggression) with choke chain correction.

I questioned what you'd said because partly, you were very vague in your post and also because I've resolved the issues with my dog (to the best they'll be given her start in life), without the 'hard' handling I was offered by the police dog trainer from the Met (Metropolitan Force - which is our London police force). Which surely for a family dog, is without doubt the best way, rather than the type of police handling/training I've been exposed to? I've managed her by instilling different behaviours and reactions to certain situations with distraction and reward based training - it is now an ingrained behaviour and one I'm very proud of achieving with her through a lot of hard work. From what I saw of her early on, some of the 'hard handling' and aversive techniques used by police trainers here did sometimes stop her in her tracks, but didn't work if you weren't attached to her at the time, it didn't change her behaviour for the better long term and only heightened her tendency to be pumped up and stressed. None of this would have given me the reliable dog I needed.

Just based on what you wrote about what the police trainer suggested for your Weim, I stand by everything I said about my low regard for K9 police unit trainers both here and and now on the other side of the pond.  Are our experiences so different if your MET police dog trainer obviously didn't know what he was doing when working with your dog?  Why in the world would the man suggest such firm methods on such a soft breed of dog and on a dog that is fear aggressive?  Of course, hardness in handling and levels of compulsion required is going to be different between a family dog (especially one with a faulty temperament) and a breed of dog that is selectively bred for protection work and what was suggested for your dog was unnecessary.  Like I said before, any good trainer isn't going to give you a tool, like a half check, and training method, like compulsion based training, and say that it's the cure all for all dogs and all situations.

Your MET dog trainer obviously isn't someone I'd consider a good trainer.  Perhaps a good enough trainer for dogs who have been selectively bred for the temperament and drives that would require firmer handling for control, but not a good enough trainer to understand that all dogs have different levels of drives and different temperaments that would necessitate a more in-depth evaluation of one's approach to training. 

The personal protection dog breeder and trainer I know uses firm methods with his dogs, but I would trust him with my own dogs in a heartbeat, because I know that he's smart enough to know the difference between handling the breed of dog he normally works with and softer breeds.  He uses reward based training for ALL his dogs - those kenneled and trained for protection work and his personal dogs, an APBT and a Labrador Retriever - and he corrects ALL dogs for inappropriate behavior, but the difference in levels of corrections is determined by the temperament of the dog, meaning a zap of the shock collar for the working GSD or the removal of a prized object (negative punishment) from the Lab.  The training method is the same for all dogs, but the correction level differs depending on the individual dog.

I think it would be pretty obvious that the Weimaraner would make a lousy police dog.  The temperament of a correct Weimaraner should have no social aggression, which is essential for real protection work.  Being big and having lots of prey drive is only a part of what makes a good protection dog.  Engaging a suspect (his prey) and biting out of satisfaction of prey drive is only good enough if it's all just a game (something like Schutzhund), but completely unreliable in the real world, which is scary and where prey fights back. 

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Sounds like you agree with me then. For the record, this wasn't 'my' trainer, it was a man who was suggested to me by an APDT trainer, who I don't think realised the level of some of his methods. I met him and discussed how he'd approach our problems. I tried a number of different APDT trainers but none of them felt they where happy working with my dog in situ which was only where her problems manifest, so I needed to try and find someone that might. As it happens I couldn't so had to use theory and try different advice offered until we found a way forward that worked and I was prepared to do with her. Weim's aren't really 'soft' dogs.. they are reasonably sensitive and very intelligent but certainly not Spaniel level of 'soft' - the hunting jobs they were bred for and are capable of, are very different to Spaniels. We're going around in circles on this now for really for no real reason. This thread was more about the appropriateness of half check collars in a puppy training classes today..

[Jane S]

We're going around in circles on this now for really for no real reason. This thread was more about the appropriateness of half check collars in a puppy training classes today..

I agree Hannah so will close this now.