Help needed (long i'm afraid)

[Danni and Freya]

I think she's a sensitive wee girl and has had quite a few changes in the last few months and it's all caught up with her - you haven't had it easy either, and having to re-home your boy must have been strange for Freya and awful for you and she would pick up on your emotions as well...and then she has a baby to try and figure out too  

As for advice, you've got the expert on the thread so there's no need for any input from me except to say be kind to yourself as well.  

Thanks Helen, really appreciate those kind words. To be fair we have both had a bit of a rollercoaster ride recently and I totally agree that she is a very sensitive girl, bless her heart  It must be a lot for her to get her head around. Thankyou x

[Sarah.H]

Have you tried giving her zylkene? If it is stress related then it may help.

[Sarah1985]

Its very difficult to give advise over the internet so Id always recomend looking for a decent behaviourist if you can. But From what you've said She's sounds like shes means the world to you and is used to getting your attention, but when your not at your sisters your prob chatting and cooing over the baby, so she is finding it a bit unnerving because you cant give her the attention shes used to.

The behaviourist does have some good advise if you can dig through all the dominance theory rubbish to find it. Getting her used to relaxing away from you (ie not on the sofa) might not be such a bad thing. If she has a blanket at your sisters you could practice getting it out at home and asking her to chill on the floor for an hour or so. You can then invite her up for a cuddle afterwards. This isnt to exerting your dominance over her or anything like that but just get her used to a variety of ways to relax that dont involve being pressed against you (which I can appreciate is very tempting as cockers are so cuddly  ).

Once she used to this you could see if you could take her to your sisters when your sister and her baby arent there to get her used to relaxing in this way in this enviroment without the stress of additional people. Keep it a really postive experience with lots of rewards (cuddles, treats or games) for calm behaviour. Meanwhile you could meet your sister for a walk in a location where Fraya really enjoys so that she gets some postive associations with the baby and your sister but in a location shes more comfortable with.

 By doing this you are teaching her how to behave but only introducing the various stress triggers at levels she can cope with, remember to take things at her pace and if things get to much for her take it back a step.

Hope that give you some ideas of things you can try with her   

[Danni and Freya]

Thankyou both for your ideas, I feel much better having the advice broken down from people I trust. I will give it all a go and see how we get on. Will certainly have a look at getting some zylkene too. Thanks again x

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

Try not to get too bogged down and caught up in language used  

You will find that in all theorys there are common things used for different uses.

"I dont let my dog barge through doors first"

Dominence theory because I am the boss positive training theory because I dont want my neck broke.

Its how and why these rules are taught that has the most impact not the actual rule itself.

Dogs dont associate well so saying shes allowed on your sofa but not your sisters isnt a big deal.

My dogs are allowed on the sofa whenever they want unless they are told to get down so its the opposite of someone who only lets them up on invitation but so long as the rule stays the same for the dog it doesnt matter which one is used. Some never let their dogs on the sofa and thats ok too.

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

One other thing sorry.

Is your only problem with Freya that she sometimes pees at your sisters?

Not to downplay a stressful situation for a dog here or your concern IF that is the only problem dont blow it out of proportion.

Sometimes us humans can make mountains out of molehils and make things worse 

Flynn used to pee when friends came around or if Mez moved him and hated being in other peoples houses.

So mez didnt move him, friends ignored him and he would pee and run into a crate. In other peoples houses I would ignore him until he had calmed down.

I didnt get friends to approach him or Mez to practice moving him with treats etc,, I just left him to his own devices and he figured out in his own time he was safe. I felt if i had of started trying to work on it that would of made it a bigger deal in his head than it was.

[Hurtwood Dogs]

I didnt get friends to approach him or Mez to practice moving him with treats etc,, I just left him to his own devices and he figured out in his own time he was safe. I felt if i had of started trying to work on it that would of made it a bigger deal in his head than it was.

Totally agree with that Some things do need tackling proactively and others just need downplaying, time and general calmness

[Danni and Freya]

One other thing sorry.

Is your only problem with Freya that she sometimes pees at your sisters?

Not to downplay a stressful situation for a dog here or your concern IF that is the only problem dont blow it out of proportion.

Sometimes us humans can make mountains out of molehils and make things worse 

Flynn used to pee when friends came around or if Mez moved him and hated being in other peoples houses.

So mez didnt move him, friends ignored him and he would pee and run into a crate. In other peoples houses I would ignore him until he had calmed down.

I didnt get friends to approach him or Mez to practice moving him with treats etc,, I just left him to his own devices and he figured out in his own time he was safe. I felt if i had of started trying to work on it that would of made it a bigger deal in his head than it was.

You are absolutely right there, this is the first issue i've ever encountered with Freya, shes been the easiest dog from start to finish, trained to a level I am very happy with. This literally is the first issue we have come across. Its got me in a spin as it seems to be due to stress.

The lady that came said she does it in the way she does because shes a naturally submissive dog (which she is). She doesn't squat or conciouslly pee, she will start trying to clean herself up when shes laying down. I think the best advice the lady gave us was to ignore it all. Clean up quietly after it happens and continue to ignore her whilst shes displaying her stressed out behaviours (the peeing or pacing).

Up until yesterday we had visited roughly 5 times for a good 4 hours at a time with absolutely none of it, which was a huge boost. The reason I have asked for your advice is that I needed to hear that it wasn't because I wasn't doing all of the pack leader stuff I was told to do. I felt that maybe that could be the reason although I didnt believe it.

[Trixie780]

I have to agree with what everyone else has said.  We have been using a behaviorist for Tucker for several months now and we were concerned at first because some of her beliefs are rooted in the dominance theory.  However, her methods are kind and very effective, rooted in logic and what works.  She has an honest affection for animals, ours included, and she alters her methods for each animal.  Tucker is very submissive and his agression and guarding behaviours resulted from fear and not "dominance".  By approaching Tucker calmly and gently, only after he has calmed down, it has resulted in him calming down considerably.  He now knows that the calmer he is, the more attention he gets and faster.  As for furniture, dogs are pretty clever.  Tucker is allowed on the upstairs recliner, only after he asks for permission and it's granted (he places his head on the edge of the chair and begs with big sad eyes!).  He is never allowed on the other furniture and would never jump on the furniture at someone else's home unless invited.  As for our bed, Tucker will snuggle up with me when I read but he knows that when the lights go out it's time for him to head to his own bed in our sons' room (not on our son's bed!).  It's amazing what they'll adapt to if it's made routine.  Our trainer has also shown us that, with submissive or high-stress dogs, routine is incredibly important.  Tucker seems to be much calmer now that he knows what's expected of him and that we are firm with the rules that we've set. 

[Danni and Freya]

I have to agree with what everyone else has said.  We have been using a behaviorist for Tucker for several months now and we were concerned at first because some of her beliefs are rooted in the dominance theory.  However, her methods are kind and very effective, rooted in logic and what works.  She has an honest affection for animals, ours included, and she alters her methods for each animal.  Tucker is very submissive and his agression and guarding behaviours resulted from fear and not "dominance".  By approaching Tucker calmly and gently, only after he has calmed down, it has resulted in him calming down considerably.  He now knows that the calmer he is, the more attention he gets and faster.  As for furniture, dogs are pretty clever.  Tucker is allowed on the upstairs recliner, only after he asks for permission and it's granted (he places his head on the edge of the chair and begs with big sad eyes!).  He is never allowed on the other furniture and would never jump on the furniture at someone else's home unless invited.  As for our bed, Tucker will snuggle up with me when I read but he knows that when the lights go out it's time for him to head to his own bed in our sons' room (not on our son's bed!).  It's amazing what they'll adapt to if it's made routine.  Our trainer has also shown us that, with submissive or high-stress dogs, routine is incredibly important.  Tucker seems to be much calmer now that he knows what's expected of him and that we are firm with the rules that we've set. 

Thanks for this, I see what your saying about the methods being plausible if not for the pack theory label. She didn't tell me to do anything I consider wrong or cruel, which is why I did trust her. She does have a very one method fits all approach I think, but I took in the bits I thought were useful and dismissed some of the other things she said to do (pretend to eat her food for instance). I havent been to my sisters for a couple of days but will let you all know how we get one when we do. Thanks again for everyones input, really, really appreciate it 

[Top Barks]

sometimes things you do make a difference to a dogs behaviour, it doesn't matter what reasons you are given for it to work as long as it is not cruel and fits with your principles of how dogs should be treated then fine.
The thing is you can spend a whole lot of time doing stuff that makes no difference as part of the plan.
i've done the eating before my dog, stand in his bed nonsence and it doesn't make a jot of difference.
I know for a fact that a lot of things Jan fennel does works, but not because of the baloney she spouts as to why.
Techniques work or fail because of the way dogs learn and react to things in their environment and what motivates and maintains them.
For instance ignoring a dog when you reunite with them stops the dog greeting you by jumping and wild greetings not because this how alpha wolves do it (I'm not saying they don't) it is because the dog realises there is no benefit to the behaviour and nothing comes from it so why should he continue?
Dogs repeat behaviours they find reinforcing and cease behaviours they find unrewarding or punishing.
The key to solving any behavioural issue is to find out what is motivating that particular behaviour and take away that motivation, which can be sometimes easier said than done.
Dogs change, behaviours develop and it is how we deal with those problems that often lead to whether the behaviour becomes deep rooted or passes as quickly as it came.

[Danni and Freya]

Thanks again Mark, wise words from someone i'd sooner trust. I said before this woman came that if she said to do anything I wasn't happy with I would dismiss it/her. She didn't, but did say a lot of stuff that I deemed to be irrelevant like you say Mark, the food eating, going through doors before her etc that I didn't take a lot of notice off.

The one useful thing she said, that appeared to have an immediate impact, was the ignoring of stressed behaviour and only fussing after she has been calm and relaxed for a good length of time. This is the bit I paid full attention to and have really stuck to when at my sisters. We did have a recent blip, but I am encouraged by the fact that by ignoring this behaviour and calmly cleaning up, she then went on to sleep and relax for another hour after the blip.

Can't thank you enough for your imput and help, I trust my fellow COLers completley, and value this help and advice above what the trainer had to say (no disrespect to her)

[Top Barks]

I'm glad to hear this lady's visit has helped you. it does sound like she gave you some good advice, but with anyone with a one size fits all approach you have to take the stuff that's relevant to you and ignore the rest which is what you've done. I'm so pleased it is working for you.
Habits dogs develop take time to disappear, the dog has to work out the behaviour is no longer having the desired effect so i would not be surprised if you get the odd blip from time to time, behaviours also spontaneously reoccur after a long period for no apparent reason so be prepared for that too.
If that happens then you need to ensure you follow the same guidelines as you did originally to sort the problem.

[Danni and Freya]

I'm glad to hear this lady's visit has helped you. it does sound like she gave you some good advice, but with anyone with a one size fits all approach you have to take the stuff that's relevant to you and ignore the rest which is what you've done. I'm so pleased it is working for you.
Habits dogs develop take time to disappear, the dog has to work out the behaviour is no longer having the desired effect so i would not be surprised if you get the odd blip from time to time, behaviours also spontaneously reoccur after a long period for no apparent reason so be prepared for that too.
If that happens then you need to ensure you follow the same guidelines as you did originally to sort the problem.

Excellent Mark, can't thank you enough for your advice and for making my expectations a bit more realistic  got to give the poor wee lass a chance. I hope we are on the road to recovery now 

[MegandMolly]

Just a thought

Is it possible for you to visit your sister's house without her or the baby being there? (Send them for a walk with the pram / mum take them shopping) so that you can try to get Freya to relax in the environment without all the stimulus being present?