Author Topic: Growling & going for children  (Read 3346 times)

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Offline PippaMattinson

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2011, 05:20:53 PM »
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This will upset others
I am sorry if anyone is offended by the warning to avoid touching a growling puppy.  On balance think it is more important to avoid children being bitten than it is to avoid upsetting adults reading a forum post.

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these blood sucking vampires
I acknowledge that veterinary treatment can be expensive, but  do not share your view of vets,  my vet is an important part of my dogs’ lives,  and all the members of my local practice are supportive, considerate and dedicated to their jobs.  I usually recommend that people insure their dogs to avoid heart rending decisions over expensive treatment.

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To tell us what we already know......
We know what we are observing but not always the cause.  It is always important when a dog shows signs of aggression to ensure that it is in good health.  This is because there can sometimes be an underlying cause such as thyroid problems,  which is the source of the bad behaviour.

Pippa

Offline seaangler

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2011, 07:09:49 PM »
How often  your self must have seen it more than one time...When puppies are feeding Either in one big bowl or separately..The squabbling growling an snapping at each other that is going on between them all...

I'm not sure this is common with well-fed litters - our puppies are always too intent on eating their share of the grub to waste time squabbling with their litter mates. I'd be quite worried if there was the level of "scrapping" you describe routinely going on over food :-\

...We will agree and disagree..In the farming industry i get to see lot of litters at farms.And an alfull lot of squabbling  goes on... during feeding time...





Gemma..Cindy And peggy

Offline Jane S

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2011, 07:19:07 PM »
..We will agree and disagree..In the farming industry i get to see lot of litters at farms.And an alfull lot of squabbling  goes on... during feeding time...

Well that's probably down to the way these farm litters are reared and also down to the breed to some extent. I can definitely say that's not been how our Cocker litters behave in over 20 years of breeding ;)
Jane

Offline seaangler

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2011, 07:45:03 PM »
Sorry Jane that is rubbish to say.... I know lots of people that have pups from farms(not the puppy farm ones either)There is a lot of farmer breeders that will disagree in what you are saying...

I would go on to say they are reared no more different than the way you breed....A lot of farm kitchens i go into in the corner of there room are dogs seeing to there pups that is very normal in a lot of farms i go to...











Gemma..Cindy And peggy

Offline Loudon

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2011, 07:46:41 PM »


Well that's probably down to the way these farm litters are reared and also down to the breed to some extent. I can definitely say that's not been how our Cocker litters behave in over 20 years of breeding ;)
[/quote]

Yep, I am really surprised with all of this. In 40 years of cockers in family I have always thought of cockers as small labs by nature. In that they have always been safe with children putting up with pulling of ears etc. I think a cocker by nature should be a happy litle chap who avoids conflict with humans at all costs but who wants to be your bestest friend in the whole world. Yes, they can argue with their siblings, who doesn't, but humans are a def no no. As for feeding time you should be able to put your hand in the bowl without fear and maybe that should be taught as early as possible.

Offline seaangler

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2011, 07:48:48 PM »
Loudon ....I to agree...But others will care to differ....

If i was to say I've seen farmers youngsters crewing across the floor and sitting in with the mother and her pups.....





Gemma..Cindy And peggy

Offline Jane S

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2011, 10:46:49 PM »
Sorry Jane that is rubbish to say.... I know lots of people that have pups from farms(not the puppy farm ones either)There is a lot of farmer breeders that will disagree in what you are saying...

I would go on to say they are reared no more different than the way you breed....A lot of farm kitchens i go into in the corner of there room are dogs seeing to there pups that is very normal in a lot of farms i go to...


I hope I don't have to remind you of COL's Forum Etiquette guidelines re being polite to other members and respecting their opinions. Your reply to me is argumentative and really quite rude >:( Even when I disagree with you (as I do here), I don't say your comments are "rubbish"!!

I will leave this now as to be honest your comments on litter behaviour (whether accurate or not) have little to do with the OP's original problem and any further discussion is just distracting from the issue at hand. We will have to agree to disagree and I'm afraid I really do disagree with you on this one.

Jane

Offline seaangler

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2011, 09:16:14 AM »
I do apologize to Jane for my behavior yesterday will not happen again will conduct my future post in the right full manner...As to the Etiquette guidelines of this webb site...

After seeing a site on the Webb as to what i meant to say about litter behavior this is what i meant in this Webb site below..It has a lot to do with this post as to Mouthing and biting and will have a clearer understanding as to what i should have but in my post.. ...

Please take note as to the last few lines in the first paragrath....

Please do not link to or add quotes (as they must be attributed) from websites which advocate the use of aversives on puppies/dogs





Gemma..Cindy And peggy

Offline Jane S

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2011, 09:42:56 AM »
Please take note as to the last few lines in the first paragrath....

Also thiswebb site does explane every thing from the first post...

Your website link (removed due to the recommendation of aversives being used on young puppies) is written by someone who obviously believes in the now discredited dominance theory - think I'd rather read Dr Dunbar on puppy behaviour ;) I don't dispute that puppies play fight with each or that they learn bite inhibition from interacting with their litter mates. I disagreed with your assertion that all puppies scrap and squabble when being fed as my own experience does not support this. That's by the by though as this thread is about an adolescent dog resource guarding which is very different from a young puppy play biting/mouthing so probably best we stick to that subject :D


Jane

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2011, 04:32:24 PM »
To the OP, I would agree that if you're seriously concerned, it might be worth contacting a behaviourist.

I've had one pup that did resource guard and was difficult for most of his first year and one pup that was a lot less likely to do it and never really a problem. I have young children too and my experience is that all puppies are different (not good or bad) you can apply more heavy handed training methods to some pups without them starting to react, and with others (that still grow into very wonderful adult dogs) you can't do this with without stressing the pup so much that they actually become worse and a lot more unpredictable.

When I got my first pup (over 10 years ago) I was pregnant and before I knew more, lots of well wishers told me it was important to be able to take anything away from him (just take it, not ask him for it) and stick my hand in his dinner so he knew who was in charge etc etc. There didn't seem to be any need for me to do this but although he wasn't keen on that sort of thing, I tried it and he seemed ok with it - probably similar to Seaanglers Peggy.... the reality was, that he was the softest dog I've ever met and would have put up with anything. Fortunately I stopped listening to well wishers and did a lot more research on training and learnt more about how to get the best out of your pup in a much better way. Which is lucky as the next pup guarded everything ferociously and couldn't even take 'no' let alone having things taken from him or his dinner messed around with.

I have young children too and aside timing him out as a pup when we needed to, we have other simple rules that really help... I never EVER give them treats/bones when the kids are around. Children are unpredictable and can make dogs feel uneasy - if they are even a bit worried about their resource they are much more likely to warn children than adults - so for now, don't give the dog things he really values when the kids are around. Move his bed to somewhere he can feel really safe and have a rule that the kids need to leave him well alone when he's in there. When he's eating, leave him well alone for now and give him space so he can relax. I'd then suggest an adult (with no kids around) starts to try handfeeding and then adding food to his bowl while he's eating when he's relaxed enough and eventually when he's relaxed with that, getting the children to do similar. Teaching 'swapping' with the children is a great idea -  dog has a toy and you offer something seriously tasty as a swap that's even more valuable and gradually introduce a command with it - long term, the dog learns to happily give up the toy and welcomes you near him when he has it etc as you're associated with a good thing for him. You can start to apply this to more valuable things with him once he gets the idea etc...

None of this is being soft or avoiding the issue - you are simply helping your pup to learn to relax in his own time and trust you all and in my mind, that's a much safer bet than going head to head with a pup and forcing issues. As adult dogs, both my pups have been absolutely wonderful with children (despite serious worries about the second one when he was younger :lol:) and whilst I still don't give them bones or chews when the kids are around (although I could easily do that with my weim) there is nothing else that's a problem.

Dave (was devil puppy cocker) is still a little prone to guarding or stealing things and burying them but the children just have to ask him to 'leave it' now and he happily gives his prize up for a big cuddle or something tasty from them :lol2: :luv: Had he been handled in a different way in the early days, I FIRMLY believe Dave would have been an unpredictable adult dog which would have been very difficult to manage with young children whereas the first pup probably would have tolerated bad handling and training and still been lovely.

Try not to loose heart, just sit down and try and work out what's triggering the barking and remove/change those situations, then start working on building his trust and letting him learn to relax by practicing some of the positive things I and others have mentioned :luv:

Hannah, Dave & Normy xx

Trev 2001-07 soul dog, always in my heart and dreams x

Offline seaangler

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2011, 07:07:50 PM »
I have read some of  Ian Dunbar books on puppy behaviour...And i see now he writing a book with Cesar Miland on puppie trainng..... That will be interesting... :D





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Offline Mel

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2011, 08:29:56 PM »
I'm not going to get heavily involved with this, but I agree with Hannah. I follow Dunbar's desensitisation methods and have had good success, especially around food, treats, etc.

I think swapping is a great idea along with desensitisation. Hannah knows my thoughts are that a dog should be so desensitised that a child could sit safely in with a mum and pups or food or something damgerous can safely be removed from a dog when you just happen to not have something to swap with.

I'm also aware of the Dunbar/Milan book and will be interested to read it and see what it is about Milan that Dunbar sees good in.

Swapsies is your best way around this but look into desensitisation, it may work for you.

I shall now return to reading and sit on my hands  ;)
Kelynen Mister Bojangles 17th March 1997 - 29th January 2010

”Come on Stink-woo, time for bubbyes. End of days now my poppety.”

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Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2011, 10:06:15 PM »
I have to confess to never having read an Ian Dunbar book that I can remember, but it's stuff that just makes sense to me and has worked....

Hannah, Dave & Normy xx

Trev 2001-07 soul dog, always in my heart and dreams x

Offline Jane S

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2011, 11:11:05 PM »
I'm also aware of the Dunbar/Milan book and will be interested to read it and see what it is about Milan that Dunbar sees good in.

Sounds like he's just seized the opportunity to get a lot more people reading about reward based training methods (knowing that any book featuring Millan sells by the bucket load):

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/my-contribution-cesar-millans-new-book

Jane

Offline Mel

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Re: Growling & going for children
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2011, 12:23:07 AM »
I'm also aware of the Dunbar/Milan book and will be interested to read it and see what it is about Milan that Dunbar sees good in.

Sounds like he's just seized the opportunity to get a lot more people reading about reward based training methods (knowing that any book featuring Millan sells by the bucket load):

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/my-contribution-cesar-millans-new-book



Ooh thanks I'd missed that Jane. Well, to be honest, more people know Milan than Dunbar in the general public arena and if it get's his theories out there and more dogs are treated fairly, then I'm all for it.

It's a wise soldier who knows when to sleep with the enemy and when to shoot him!
Kelynen Mister Bojangles 17th March 1997 - 29th January 2010

”Come on Stink-woo, time for bubbyes. End of days now my poppety.”

Free Cake!