Fraser attacked another dog!

[tritonx]

I am one of those awful owners with an aggressive dog I read about on this board. I am completed flummoxed and a fair bit horrified. Fraser is now 2 1/2, a more affectionate, happy, playful dog you'll never find. However, in the last few months, very isolated incidents, on leash, he's growled ferociously at other dogs on greeting. 99% of the time, greetings are respectful and careful, especially with bigger dogs. Once he's assured the other dog is friendly, he just wants to play. In the last 6 months or so, he's been getting more male doggish, barking in full display mode at certain, but not all dogs, who are barking at him from behind fences. As he approaches the property, he gets all struttish and casting about to see if the dog he doesn't like is on the other side of the fence, and if it is, he races toward it (on leash) and barks and growls as though he saying, I'll do you, just give me a chance.

Yesterday, he was approached by a year old neutered male Westie that was all waggy tailed and friendly and at first Fraser was wagging and friendly and then all of a sudden, went for him all snarly.Both dogs on leash. No damage and once I'd pulled him off, he wandered about sniffing things and was even wagging his tail at the dog as the owner and I talked, trying to figure out what had happened and why. Luckily, she was a calm, doggie lady and not angry about it. Then tonight, on our evening walk, I let Fraser off the leash in a park where I never see people at that time of evening. A girl and her leashed small dog approached and when Fraser saw them, he raced over and started to attack the small dog. Once again, no damage, but I had a hard time hauling him off as he was going through my arms and legs to get at it. The girl said the small dog was a rescue from a puppy mill, about 4 year old entire male. The dog did not as far as I could see approach Fraser in an unfriendly way, though the girl said the little fellow didn't know how to play as he was rescued from a puppy mill. The pattern seems to be small male dog, often young ones, and Fraser usually goes from tail wagging to aggression. This time he was off leash, so that wasn't a factor. I used to be able to reassure people that my dog was friendly, but not any more. What makes it difficult is that there's no clear sign beforehand that he's going to get aggressive. He can be wagging as he usually does when he wants to meet a dog and then he's full bore. Thoughts? Advice?

[seaangler]

What is happening is your are meeting the dog head on....

This is from one of Victoria Stilwels show...(she is now back in England by the way)....

What i seen her do with the same behavoior as you are going through....Is you need to ask the person whos dog you are meeting(or haveing probs with) to walk her dog in front of you so you can bring your dog slowly from behind so your dog get to smell the Butt end of the other dog and keep walking when your dog is busy smelling away so the meeting is not agresive so they get use to one another...and visa versa...
can but try....

 

[Ben's mum]

I am one of those awful owners with an aggressive dog I read about on this board. I am completed flummoxed and a fair bit horrified. 

Owners of agressive dogs are not awful  My Ben would fit into that category easily on an off day! I wouldn't spend too much time being flummoxed, I would try to get some advice from a good behaviourist about what is happening (and I don't mean Victoria Stilwell ) Apologies to anyone who likes her, but I think its a bit scary to try to copy what you see on the TV without having a good understanding of what is actually happening.  For a lot of us caring and well meaning owners, we are just not knowledgable or experienced enough to really know why our dogs display certain behaviours and I do think that when there are issues with agression it is time to call a professional for advice.  I've seen them do open heart surgery on TV but I wouldn't have a go at it myself   

[tritonx]

I'm not familiar with Victoria Stilwell, though just on the face of it, it would be impractical on a regular walk where we pass many dogs going the opposite way to do a rear first arrangement. Most people just want to let them greet and sniff and then move on. Right now I'm trying to see the pattern and so far it's small dog, male, often young though not always. It seems to me in general he's becoming more aggressive. I'm just back from a walk where I kept him on fairly short leash as we went past the garden where he is ready to go full display at the dog behind the fence. But, on the way out the door, Fraser was on his leash, I turned to lock the door and was almost pulled off my feet by Fraser racing to the end of his leash, barking in full voice at a couple of labs on the other side of the street walking peaceably alongside their owner. Just the sight of them set him off. He's definitely much more reactive these days. I know people seem to attribute a lot to anal glands, so wondering about this. In late December, Fraser went in for a groom and had his anal glands emptied. Recently he's been scooting a bit after pooping. He often poops two to three times on a walk and by the second or third ones they're quite soft, so I've been assuming he's scooting for that reason (sticky bum). I noticed today his two poops were not soft, but he still scooted. Could that cause a change in behaviour? He did have a couple of days of virtual no pooping when I ran out of pumpkin and we were traveling and I was just on the point of taking him to the vet, when he got back to regular poop sched. I'm prepared to see a behaviourist about what's going on as I certainly don't want him ever causing harm to another dog. Right now I think it's all sound and fury, but who knows. Not pleasant to see your normally soppy pup in that state.

[Sarah.H]

I have an aggressive dog as well  . What I found enormously helpful was to learn about canine body language, not all tail wagging is a friendly sign 

Brenda Aloffs Canine body language is a great book and there's loads of stuff on the internet 

[Karma]

Also, not all dogs you meet would be happy to have another dog come up behind them...

At our training school we have a simple rule of "Do not allow dogs to meet on-lead".  I know the recent incident was off-lead, but your post suggests that you have had him greet on-lead dogs regularly, that he has reacted several times, and now it is escalating?  If he is put in the position of having to react aggressively because he cannot run away (as occurs in an on-lead greeting) he is practising this behaviour, and it will spill over into when he is off-lead, because he learns that it works.

I really think it would be a good idea to work with a behaviourist who can observe his whole range of interactions with other dogs, and ideally work with stooge dogs to help him learn how to be calm around other dogs.

If you are confident with clicker training, Click to Calm is a great book and might help you in the meantime. 
The Look at That game will also help - if he looks at another dog (BEFORE he lunges/reacts) click and treat, and at the same time step away from the other dog - but this is much easier to acheive working with stooge dogs so that he is used to it before the unpredictability of when you meet dogs out and about.  In the meantime do not put him in the position of meeting dogs on-lead - cross the road, turn around and walk a different way, but do not walk him head on towards another on-lead dog.  I know it's a pain, but every time he reacts to another dog, he is establishing the behaviour as an acceptable (to him) way of dealing with his fear.  There are literally 4 dogs who Honey will greet on-lead without becoming fearful (and then aggressive if were to let it get that far) - if we can't avoid a dog entirely, I get as far out of the way as possible, ask her to sit and hand feed her treats as the dog (hopefully) walks by.  Some people like to try and sabotage our avoidance measures, and I just make a swift exit - my dog's behaviour is more important than whether they think I'm rude/wierd or whatever... 
If Honey is on-lead and is approached by an off-lead dog, I drop the lead (if it is safe to do so) so - she will still tell it to get lost at this point, but it is less likely to lead to her being less tolerant of other dogs for the rest of the day, as she doesn't feel as threatened.  If it's not safe enough to drop the lead, I just walk away as quickly as possible (i don't care where at that point). 

While it's an understandable reaction, keeping him on a shorter leash is likely to escalate the problem, as he will have less freedom to display any avoidance strategies or calming signals.  Use treats to keep him focussed on you when passing gardens where you know he becomes uneasy (or cross the road and pass them at a distance).

[tritonx]

Thanks for the helpful responses. I'll look into the books mentioned and Karma, thanks for the detailed description of dealing with the situation. What got me unnerved is that 99% of the time, he happily greets other dogs. It's that unpredictable (to me) emerging 1% that seems so out of character. I don't have the option of having him off leash in our public places as it's not allowed and Fraser has developed the habit of just sitting down when he sees another dog as he wants to greet, but I certainly can just walk him past dogs as he's treat mad. The kennel where I occasionally leave him has a trainer there who does Ttouch (I think) or at least is a reward based, non dominance theory person. I'll see if she does consultations as she already knows Fraser and presumably has seen him interact with other dogs. They have paddocks and put the dogs together for play time by size and temperament.

[JaspersMum]

Been there and got the tshirt when Louie was a similar age.  He still sometimes finds it hard if a dog approaches him when he's on lead but I can now trust him to cope to the point he was able to attend Manchester Champ show with us in January after taking part in some YKC events and he was chilled and enjoyed the attention.

In Lou's case we put it down to neutering him and it took away some of the hormones that helped him deal with stress.  As long as he could get away from meeting other dogs, he was fine.  We put him on a calming supplement (at the time we used the Petspec calmer) and also met up with a stooge dog that was absolutely bomb proof but if Lou tried a pop at her, she only had to look at him for him to know that this wasn't acceptable.  Louie has always been one to keep himself to himself but he does tend to like to protect Heidi if she barks and will also be protective of me so we also did a lot of work on sharing so I can actually say hello to another dog in his presence and give him stress free walks on his own.

First step needs to be to identify the triggers, is it stress?  My friend walks her nervy dog in a thundershirt and that has helped a lot.

[Pudding]

 Bob also has a problem when he approaches other dog on lead.... or should i say when they approach him,
 I too have always been taught, at both the training classes i go to that you should not
greet other dog if they are on lead, because your dog cannot control the situation if he is on lead..
i found out it was mostly my fault.. as i would tense up not knowing what Bob would do
if he was going to be nice, or if he was going to have a go.. the other thing i would find myself doing was to pull him away from the other dog, and this would always make him, have a go....
off lead he was much better. but again i would make thing worse as i got very nervous if another off lead dog would come over to us.. so i would call him and put him back on his lead...

But thank you to COL and all the good advice he is now fine off lead and i don’t panic any more
(Much) but what really helped me the most was going on the COL meet ups.. where i got lots of help
And advice and hand on experience with all the other cockers and owners.

He is still not very good on lead meeting other dogs....

[seaangler]

Quote...If Honey is on-lead and is approached by an off-lead dog, I drop the lead (if it is safe to do so) so - she will still tell it to get lost at this point,

Not always the case karma...Some dogs can also come up all submisive wagging tails and so forth...And be most agressive in an instent and reverse rolls... ...And one in perticulore is the welsh Border collie...

[Sheepscheeks]

I am one of those awful owners with an aggressive dog I read about on this board.

But you are not an awful owner because you are trying to do something about the situation rather than just ignoring it. I posted recently about Freddie being attacked by an Alsatian and the owner gave the "He's never done that before" response (which I don't believe as the dog had growled at Freddie before) rather than a "Oh dear, I don't know why he did that, I'll have to sort this out." I really hope you get some good advice from a behaviourist. Oh, and I see on lots of replies about new behaviours that people often recommend a check up at the vet just to make sure there is no underlying physical problem that could be causing a change in behaviour. Good luck. 

[Karma]

Quote...If Honey is on-lead and is approached by an off-lead dog, I drop the lead (if it is safe to do so) so - she will still tell it to get lost at this point,

Not always the case karma...Some dogs can also come up all submisive wagging tails and so forth...And be most agressive in an instent and reverse rolls... ...And one in perticulore is the welsh Border collie...

Frankly I don't care about the other dog at that point - I am acting to minimise the stress and reaction of my dog.  If it is safe to drop the lead (ie not on a road) I will drop it and let Honey act.  If she is on lead, not only would she react to the approaching dog, but she would then have her interactions with any other dog (whether she was on or off lead) adversely affected for several days. 
And the only Welsh Border Collie we see is the soppiest dog out...

To the OP, that does raise another important thing for you to bear in mind - if a dog has been put in a stressful situation where it has been "forced" to react, adrenelin levels remain raised for several days, so they are more likely to react in situations where normally they would not.

[tritonx]

There's one thing I still don't understand though. As I say, 99% of the time, he's great with other dogs. I don't get the impression he's scared of them, in fact, he seems keen to go over and interact and from a distance when he spots a dog is keen to meet. If one is being walked ahead, he'll start to walk faster to try to catch up. He's a very social dog, both with humans and other dogs. It's just this vary occasional (but recently escalating) behaviour that is surprising, considering the overall friendliness. I can see how it would be helpful to go a walkies with a behaviourist who is more experienced at reading dog behaviour as I must be missing subtle clues. Even watching the situation carefully as I've started to do, I cannot see the moment of trigger from Fraser doing the usual things of successful greeting to sudden snarling aggression (nor what it is in the other dog's behaviour that might have prompted the shift.) And, in real world terms, when I'm out walking him, I have mittens on, a leash in one hand and a cane in the other and sometimes I'm fumbling with doggie bags when someone with dog on leash pulls abreast and asks if the dogs can greet. Heh, and a slightly loose toque that has a habit of dropping over my eyes at moments like this.

[seaangler]

Well karma...I have some fifty years of owning dogs and knowing how they will react to i do not think you know the hafe of how a lot of dogs do behave being a lot younger than my self and not having the experience that i have had over the years owning some thirty dogs in my life time..You may have read the books.... I have done the time with them....

[Ben's mum]

I can see how it would be helpful to go a walkies with a behaviourist who is more experienced at reading dog behaviour as I must be missing subtle clues. Even watching the situation carefully as I've started to do, I cannot see the moment of trigger from Fraser doing the usual things of successful greeting to sudden snarling aggression (nor what it is in the other dog's behaviour that might have prompted the shift.)

I think you are spot on - it is so hard to always spot the triggers, and also to read body language.  My Ben is nearly 9 and I can tell now exactly what he is going to do and how he will respond in nearly all situations.  I have only had Harry 2 years (he is nearly 3) and I just can not work out what he is thinking and like you say with Fraser the body language is sometimes confusing, I do think having an objective and experienced veiw can be really helpful, I remember being told that Ben could pick up on my anxiety as after he had been aggressive a couple of times out of the blue, I started to anticipate that he might be snappy and even though I wasn't aware of it I was holding the lead differently and acting differently and I don't know how but he was responding to my anxiety.  Not saying thats what you are doing  , but I know it can be something really subtle that you may not be aware of yourself.  Good luck