Mars Bars - feeding for collapse

[bajoleth]

Mod edit - this thread was started as it took the original subject off topic - the concern stemmed from some members feeding Mars Bars on shoots to dogs and why they did this...

orginal topic

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=90882.0


Apologies if this author is not as knowledgable as she seems (she is a vet who works her dogs though ) I found the article during a Google search but 3rd paragraph makes interesting reading
http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/Reference/health/articles/gundogcareatwork.htm
This has made me really think this morning which is annoying me as I have loads of other things to do But we always drum into members the benefit of feeding as good a quality food that you can afford and how pedigree and Bakers are rubbish foods and yet it seems perfectly acceptable to feed yor dog a Mars bar now and again as long as its worked hard enough of course
Sorry Waggytails I am going off topic, in answer to your question I have 2 Cockers both are fed the same but Belle is much more greedy than Monty, she will eat all day everyday if you let her, I have to be fairly strict with her feeding otherwise she would be a Cocker shaped Barrel, she will also cry for food when she hasn't long been fed. I was slightly concerned when she was about 12 mths but the Vet said she was perfectly healthy just greedy, she has no health problems, has a lovely shiny coat she is just greedy. If you do have concerns though a trip to the Vet will set your mind at rest

[Helen]

Apologies if this author is not as knowledgable as she seems I found the article during a Google search but 3rd paragraph makes interesting reading
This has made me really think this morning which is annoying me as I have loads of other things to do But we always drum into members the benefit of feeding as good a quality food that you can afford and how pedigree and Bakers are rubbish foods and yet it seems perfectly acceptable to feed yor dog a Mars bar now and again as long as its worked hard enough of course

I think maybe that writer should go on a shoot and see how it works and how hard a dog actually works - it's not some stroll in the park and a little trot around, it is full-on concentration and full-on energy for a long period of time.  Giving a Mars Bar is an instant way of getting glucose and sugar into a dog's body when they have expended a huge amount of energy and are still working and need energy.

Also you have to give them something that will not weigh heavy in their stomach and you can't feed normal kibble or a normal BARF meal on a shoot as the dog is on the go - it could cause bloat or torsion and potentially kill the dog.

They don't have it all of the time or on every shoot or indeed as a treat or food,  and it in no way can be compared to feeding Bakers consistently.

That comment to me is like saying an occasional Mars Bar for a human is as bad as eating Macdonalds on a daily basis  

edited to add - just read the link.  She doesn't quite put it like in your post ie 'probably not the best way'   Most people I know that work their dogs would not give a dog a meal in the morning before a shoot, I definitely wouldn't.

[bajoleth]

Did you actually read the article?? Its all about how hard the dogs work and I think she does partake in working Springer Spaniels. She does give an alternative approach to the Mars bar 
I am just stating that as a forum we place a lot of store in feeding a good diet I wouldn't want someone stumbling accross this thread thinking its acceptable to give your dog a Mars Bar as a treat and as I said previously what about all that sugar , can't be good for their teeth. I refuse to believe that feeding a Dog a Mars bar is acceptable 

[Helen]

Modified my post    

You don't work your dogs so you're not in the position where this is ever going to be an issue, and of course you're entitled to your opinion.  As a matter of interest if your dog was on a shoot and in potential danger of collapsing what would you give it?

The working dogs that do have the odd Mars bar are fit for purpose and have very good teeth and in much much better shape than a majority of non-worked cockers.

Each to their own  

also - no-one has ever suggested Mars Bars as 'a treat' on this thread 

[bajoleth]

No I don't work my dogs but surely thats not the issue, the issue is feeding a Dog a chocolate bar. I just said the post makes interesting reading and it does she states
A lot of attention has been given recently to dogs which collapse on shoot days. The main cause is thought to be low blood sugar and dogs usually respond quickly to sugar. Feeding your dog a Mars bar at lunchtime is probably not the best way to deal with the problem. It is better to adopt a feeding regime which doesn’t leave the dog with no reserves by mid-afternoon. Tradition dictates once a day feeding but many dogs will cope better if fed two smaller meals. This may mean a very early feed to ensure they have 2hours to digest before working.  Ensuring dogs are fit also helps and dogs which collapse more than once in a season should be examined by a vet in case they have underlying heart or metabolic problems.
Which clearly says that feeding a Mars bar is probably not the best way? So not sure how I have misconstrued that

Qoute from Helen:
The working dogs that do have the odd Mars bar are fit for purpose and have very good teeth and in much much better shape than a majority of non-worked cockers.
 Thats a very sweeping statement Helen and quite condescending to all the Show type and non worked workers on COL which is a very large proportion of this Forum but if thats your opinion as you say you are entitled to it .
I cant say that I will be feeding mine a Mars any day soon 

[bajoleth]

also - no-one has ever suggested Mars Bars as 'a treat' on this thread  

You are correct no one has suggested giving one as a 'treat' I apologise.
 As to your other question firstly I would like to think that I wouldn't work my dog to the point of collapse but if it did need a sugar boost probably some Honey  

[Helen]

Unfortunately dogs, especially working cockers, just don't have an off button when they're working - they can go out on one retrieve and over-do it whereas the rest of the day they are just fine, it really is just one of those things   

Honey would be fine (although mine would have to be force fed it as he hates it!) but I think the Mars Bar is convenient, is easily carried, and every dog loves them so that is why it's used. 

It honestly isn't the case where they have them every time, some dogs never ever need them.

[bajoleth]

I really dont mean to be judgemental and as you have pointed out , I know nothing about these things , it just really surprised me that Nicola and yourself would condone it if I am honest. We constantly have threads about the right way to feed our dogs etc etc and then to me it all seemed a bit hypocritical if Working Dog owners are giving their Dogs a chocolate bar admitedly whilst on a shoot and thats OK? I can see the reasoning behind it but I remain shocked, it would be something that I would never even dream of doing and if I saw an owner feeding their dog one I would probably be straight on here to tell everyone else about it, maybe its just me???
You can buy squeezy bottles of Honey now and if a Dog is near collapse you can rub it on their gums you shouldn't be trying to get a dog to swallow if they are that near to collapse and if they just need a boost you can squirt it in quick must be better than a Mars bar, perhaps you could start a new trend? Just because something is the 'done' thing doesn't always make it right

[PippaMattinson]

Hi,  I can confirm that the vet (Vicky Payne) who wrote that article on my request does indeed work her own spaniels.   

The toxicity level of chocolate varies from one dog to another. Personally I would avoid giving chocolate to a dog, though I know people that do it. My own cockers have never suffered from collapse,  but my husband's cocker has on a number of occasions.  He now pre-empts this with runny honey.  Either licked off fingers (messy) or in a sandwich.    I appreciate the none of these foods is ideal for a dog,  but it does seem to prevent her collapsing.

With my own cockers I feed a small meal before a day's work,  and feed a small amount again at mid-day.   

I have known a number of spaniels on shoots that collapse over the years, and they have all had two things in common,  one of which is a high level of excitabillity  (with tendency to squeak)  and the other is that they have all been dogs that are allowed to take in a lot of ground whilst working.   

I appreciate that this is anecdotal,  but if a cocker suffers from collapse then teaching a close quartering pattern may just help reduce the frequency of attacks. I have not yet met a close quartering dog that collapses.   But no doubt there is one somewhere 

To the OP, you have probably thought of this,  but maybe it would suit your dog better to have her main meal at the end of her walk?

Pippa
 

[bajoleth]

Hi Pippa thanks for that
Would like to add to OP that i tend to give veg a lot to Belle she loves it all, cucumber, carrot, anything really seems to satisfy her for a while and is non fattening

[Helen]

That's really interesting Pippa about the 'squeaking' etc.

I'm lucky that Jarvis neither squeaks or has collapsed on a shoot - I have to be honest, if he had collapsed on more than one occasion then I would seriously re-consider working him.

I wonder if this is more a hereditary line type thing as well - my friends working cocker collapsed and died on a shoot from a heart attack (no murmurs or signs) and it transpired others in his line suffered the same fate     He was only 5  

[lindseyp]

I have also read on working forums/groups that some dogs are given ready made custard for quick sugar fixes when out working? 

I understand what you mean Jo, in ref to any new member to the forum coming across threads, where feeding mars bars are suggested but hopefully they would read the whole thread & not just take the bits they like & disregard the rest.

If workers have fed their dogs small chocolate bars, which have proved beneficial to the dogs health , then I find it interesting & informative but that isn't to say I would ever fed my dogs them ...... quite different circumstances altogether & think common sense should prevail.  You could almost look at them as given for medicinal purposes & in the right circumstance, their use be permissable & necessary 

[bajoleth]

I have also read on working forums/groups that some dogs are given ready made custard for quick sugar fixes when out working? 

I understand what you mean Jo, in ref to any new member to the forum coming across threads, where feeding mars bars are suggested but hopefully they would read the whole thread & not just take the bits they like & disregard the rest.

If workers have fed their dogs small chocolate bars, which have proved beneficial to the dogs health , then I find it interesting & informative but that isn't to say I would ever fed my dogs them ...... quite different circumstances altogether & think common sense should prevail.  You could almost look at them as given for medicinal purposes & in the right circumstance, their use be permissable & necessary 

Maybe but there are more acceptable ways of administering the much needed glucose. In an emergency and if there were nothing else to hand then there would be no choice but in my opinion and I say yet again I know nothing of working, if you need to be giving your dog a Mars bar to revive its energy then you need to be looking at its feeding regime is it fulfilling its needs and it would concern me that the dog needed to be revived 
From the posts that I read it came accross as being commonplace thats what worries me but I seem to be in the minority of one on that front, which I must say also concerns me

[Nobbie]

This caught my interest as I do a lot of endurance sport (10 hours+ events) and am familiar with the nutrition associated with this. Generally the idea is to have a good diet, but on race days you can't just have your standard meals as you'd get a stitch, GI distress, so you tend to eat well the night before and then have a light breakfast and keep yourself going by taking on water mixed with simple sugars (sports drink). All the body needs during exercise is the blood glucose, and then have a proper meal once it's over.

Maybe the dogs would be better off drinking a sports drink of some kind if thy're in danger of collapse, although I know plenty of athletes who love a Mars bar during races

[bajoleth]

I have ben doing a google search and feeding dogs Mars Bars out on a shoot does seem to be very commonplace . However its also well noted that in an emergency situation a Mars bar will do the trick , it is only meant for a one off emergency measure. The dogs diet should then be reassessed, giving a Mars Bar to boost their energy as a matter of course is not acceptable. Here is just one article

Collapsing gun dogs
SIR, – In response to J. W. Simpson’s
request for information on ‘collapsing gun
dog’ syndrome (VR, June 2, 2007, vol 160,
p 776), I would like to add my observations.
I am a semi-retired veterinary surgeon who happens to go beating regularly
during the shooting season. I have been
present when two dogs collapsed and have
luckily been able to take blood samples in
the field. The blood results later showed
very low blood sugar levels, confirming
my thought that they were hypoglycaemic. The treatment involved keeping the
dogs warm, and when they ‘came round’
giving them half a Mars bar (not ideal,
but the only source of sugar available),
eating the other half myself. Recovery
was very quick and uneventful. One dog
subsequently had a repeat episode of the
condition at another shoot. The owner is
now feeding the dog regularly during a
shoot to prevent this from happening.
The dogs involved were a springer
spaniel and a labrador retriever. The
conditions of the shoot at the time were
cold and very wet, and in the case of the
springer spaniel, a lot of river work was
involved. Neither dog had been fed before
the shoot.
M. B. De C. Giles,

So yes the Mars bar did the trick but as this Vet states the feeding regime was altered to prevent it happening again, so having them on you and giving them to your dogs when they need the boost is not acceptable IMHO