Author Topic: Applaws and loose poohs  (Read 5995 times)

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Offline piph

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Applaws and loose poohs
« on: August 25, 2012, 07:53:33 AM »
Sorry folks, more questions - you'll be getting really fed up with me!  :005:

Ozzy came to us from the breeder on RC Junior.  As you've probably read in my last few confused posts about food, when I discovered it wasn't particularly good quality I decided to change him to a grain free food, and introduced Applaws over a week.  When he first came home his poohs were dark and firm, then became lighter and softer as the days went on.  The first part is almost always firm, then he moves and does another which is always soft and sometimes even runny.  I read somewhere (can't remember where!) that firm at the start and soft at the end were a sign of over feeding, but I know I'm not doing that!  Since he's been on the Applaws the poohs are, if anything, a bit softer (by soft I mean impossible to pick up in a pooh bag).  He normally only poohs about 3 times a day.  He also seems to be really hungry all the time on the Applaws as it hasn't got the bulk of the RC.  We've also just changed him to 3 meals a day (he's almost 16 weeks). He seems less energetic, and thirstier too.

So, my questions are:

Could the lack of cereal in Applaws be causing the loose pooh?
How long should we persevere with the Applaws before we try something else?




Offline john51

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2012, 10:39:02 AM »
We certainly found that Applaws seemed to cause soft to very soft (read thick liquid) stools and changed, in our case back to Acana grain-free. I'm not sure however whether you're saying he had problems before you went on to Applaws or it started after the changeover. If the former then it suggests that something else is involved. The difficulty I have with Lenny is deciding whether any poo problems, that still happen occasionally, are due to the food or to what he's helped himself to on his walks.

I can't believe that no cereal = soft poo in all cases but obviously there is the "does it suit your dog" factor.

I think we gave it about a month before switching and things do seem better but, as I say, still with occasional loose poos.

Home of Lenny and the late, great, Dylan.

Offline Jessie_Pup

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2012, 02:22:55 PM »


Hi   I used to feed by two Barking heads which is a good quality dry food, and do like it.  Jessie does seem to get ear infections from time to time, so gave the Acana a try.  They are both on it now. When I started the change over did it very slowly.Thought Jessie was doing okay and tried 100% after a few days, not good had loose poos.  So went back and did over four to five weeks did the same for Dylan.  For the first few weeks we were getting softer poos, but now they are both firm and smaller.   I nearly went back to BH but gave it a little while longer and things are okay now.  I think you have to give them some time to adjust,  remember our dogs are going from a grain loaded food, so their systems must have to adjust to a grain free food and a higher meat content.


Erica.

Offline SophieBlueRoanLover

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2012, 02:32:33 PM »
Has Ozzy had any worming treatment during any of this, btw? This could also have an impact (Drontal made Henry a bit runnier last time - have given it today, and I'm changing over from Hills Science to BH at the moment, so am expecting some runniness later!).
Out of interest, what's Ozzy's DOB? Henry's is 7th May - Ozzy's must be a day or two either side...

Offline piph

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2012, 02:35:29 PM »
Thanks folks - I think we'll persevere for a while - after all, as long as he's lively and seems well, what's a few (many!) loose poohs between friends.  I know I'm over-thinking this feeding lark - it's not as if I'm a novice at puppy-rearing, had quite a few over the last 37 years of marriage, but I didn't have a forum to read and consult then so I just followed my instincts, and apart from Cassie who had epilepsy, they've all been fine no matter what food they were on (even the dreaded Bakers at one stage, will no ill effects).  Perhaps I should try to break the addiction to CoL?  :005:  Although, it is fun, reading about other's woes, and knowing you are no alone.  Ozzy is our first cockerdile, so maybe that's why I'm a little tense about it all.

Offline piph

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2012, 02:43:29 PM »
Has Ozzy had any worming treatment during any of this, btw? This could also have an impact (Drontal made Henry a bit runnier last time - have given it today, and I'm changing over from Hills Science to BH at the moment, so am expecting some runniness later!).
Out of interest, what's Ozzy's DOB? Henry's is 7th May - Ozzy's must be a day or two either side...

Hi Sophie
Yes, he was wormed at the breeders (she used Drontal, always has, and said that this time all the pups had diarrhoea for days, so advised me not to use it again)  He had Milbamax a few days after his first jab (no adverse effects), and I've got another 3 months worth, the first of which he'll have next week, 4 weeks after the last dose.
His birth date is 9th May, so 2 days younger than Henry

Please let me know how Henry gets on with the BH, as think we'll try it if the Applaws doesn't work out

Offline piph

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2012, 08:29:26 AM »
Ok - update:  I have suspected for the last couple of days that I saw tiny blood spots in the mucosy pooh at the end whe  Ozzy 'performs' - this morning there was definitely blood, and he was straining and only producing  a tiny bit of mucus.  Have searched CoL and suspect colitis.  He is drinking well, and although at times a little lethargic he seems normal.  He certainly doesn't have actual diarrhoea as he was clean and dry again last night. (Having said that, I've just had to leave off writing this to go and clear up his latest offering - that's the 3rd one since we got up at 6.45 so maybe he has!).  Plan to ring the vet at 8.30 when they open to ask for advice and also to put him on chicken and rice.

Offline SophieBlueRoanLover

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2012, 08:36:31 AM »
Oh poor little Ozzy! And poor you - it's just so worrying when something happens to your pup :(
Hopefully the chicken and rice will help.

Henry's doing well on the BH - he's on half and half at the moment (still got a fair amount of the Hills that I want to finish so am not changing over too quickly!) - but he's definitely having fewer poos - only about 4 now (instead of up to 8). The Drontal I gave him yesterday doesn't seem to have affected him either (so far), which is good. Now it's just his sore nose that I'm worrying about :'( So I'm happy with the BH so far (and it's a great size for training treats).

Let us know how you get on with the vet - hugs to Ozzy.


Offline piph

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2012, 12:07:56 PM »
Just got back from the vets, (he decided that as it had been going on for several days he should check him over). Diagnosed colitis, cause unknown.  Ozzy also had a high temperature so has antibiotics (Metronidazole) for 5 days, and, for the colitis, Sulphasalazine for 4 days.  Also recommended Hills ID food for digestive health (which is a chicken and rice dry food).  Probably better than fresh cooked chicken and rice, the vet says, as it is complete and he won't need any supplements. Will put him back onto RC Junior after he's finished the Hills as it could be the Applaws, but don't want to introduce yet another food just yet.  My thinking is that as he was weaned onto it and didn't really have any problems until just before we introduced the Applaws, it would be better to go back to it for the time being until he is properly right again.  Then we can change him over to BH or something similar at a later date.

Asked the vet about grain free foods and he is of the opinion that dogs need carbohydrates for energy, and as long as they are not allergic to the grain that is in the food, and that the other ingredients are of good quality it's fine.

Ozzy was most indignant when the vet stuck the thermometer up his bum to take his temerature, and struggled like mad, crying all the time!  Hope the vet didn't hurt him as I's hate him to become frightened of the vets.  He's sleeping now, having had a stressful morning.

Offline john51

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2012, 03:16:54 PM »
Sorry to hear about Ozzy's colitis and hope that you manage to get it sorted soon.

Although I wouldn't suggest you do anything other than what your vet tells you to treat the colitis, I do think your visit raises a couple of questions.

Firstly your vet says "dogs need carbohydrates for energy". Grain-free foods are just that. They don't have cereals in them. They do contain around 20% or more carbohydrates usually in the form of potatoes, peas or other vegetables depending on the recipe. So your dog is getting energy from carbohydrates if you feed a grain-free food. However, it's also just not true to say that dogs need carbohydrates for energy. Here's a quotation from an article in The Whole Dog Journal.

Why include carbs?
As we mentioned before, dogs have no nutritional requirement for dietary carbohydrates. They can get everything they need from a diet that contains only protein and fat. Energy metabolism in the dog can be based on fat oxidation and the breakdown of protein to produce glucose.

There are two main reasons why we feed carbs to dogs. The first reason is because we can. Dogs can utilize just about anything we feed them; their digestive tracts are extremely versatile. The second reason is economic; fat and protein sources are much more expensive than carbohydrates.


The reference to the article if anyone is interested is http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_10/features/Carbohydrate-Intake-For-Dogs_20103-1.html

I'm sure your vet is perfectly good and has just been a bit sloppy in talking about food but it does make me wonder how much misinformation comes from vets.

Secondly, and this is a bit of a rant topic for me, is Hill's food. Hill's produce lots of niche products that are expensively marketed through vets. However irrespective of the high price, they use a lot of strictly second rate ingredients. I won't do a full analysis of i/d, but if you look at the ingredients:

Hill's i/d
Whole Grain Corn, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Powdered Cellulose, Lactic Acid, Dicalcium Phosphate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Iodized Salt plus other additives.

This is marketed as chicken and rice, and supposed to be better than home-cooked fresh chicken and rice, yet the chicken (fourth ingredient on the list) comes from by-product meal which:

Consists of the dry, ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines -- exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices. Chicken byproducts are much less expensive and less digestible than the chicken muscle meat.The ingredients of each batch can vary drastically in ingredients (heads, feet, bones etc.) as well as quality, thus the nutritional value is also not consistent. Don't forget that byproducts consist of any parts of the animal OTHER than meat. If there is any use for any part of the animal that brings more profit than selling it as "byproduct", rest assured it will appear in such a product rather than in the "byproduct" dumpster.

Even the rice, which you would have thought was cheap enough, is a second rate product known as brewer's rice which is defined as:

The small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice.

A processed rice product that is missing many of the nutrients contained in whole ground rice and brown rice. Contrary to what many pet food companies want to make you believe, this is not a high quality ingredient, just much cheaper than whole grain rice.


The definitions come from the Dog Food Project - Ingredients to Avoid which also includes corn gluten meal and cellulose (aka dried wood)

You probably didn't want to hear this when concentrating on getting Ozzy well, and I'm sure a short time on Hill's i/d is nor going to cause any problems, but equally I'm sure there are other options of bland foods that the vet could have suggested, and I feel it's important for people to understand the whole picture.
Home of Lenny and the late, great, Dylan.

Offline SophieBlueRoanLover

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2012, 03:50:17 PM »
Poor Ozzy - hope he gets better soon.

Interesting info about the food - which suggests that plain boiled chicken and rice would be far better than the Hills food. I'm beginning to get more and more suspicious of vets the more I read on here!

Offline piph

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2012, 04:36:46 PM »
Poor Ozzy - hope he gets better soon.

Interesting info about the food - which suggests that plain boiled chicken and rice would be far better than the Hills food. I'm beginning to get more and more suspicious of vets the more I read on here!

Don't get suspicious of vets Sophie, after all they only want the best for our animals.  The info comes from a journal from the USA and I would trust my vet rather than that.  Home cooked chicken and rice would be fine for a couple of days, but doesn't contain all the vitimins and minerals a pup needs for healthy growth, which would mean adding supplements if he were on it any longer.  Will PM' you.

Offline Helen

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2012, 04:45:48 PM »
Lots of dogs have intolerances to many things - a very common one is chicken  ;) 

I would seriously think about putting him on something like fish and potato for a few days.

The antibiotics can really knock their systems around as well - I have a note on Jarv's records saying "no Metronidazole" .

helen & jarvis x


Offline piph

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2012, 04:54:36 PM »
Lots of dogs have intolerances to many things - a very common one is chicken  ;) 

I would seriously think about putting him on something like fish and potato for a few days.

The antibiotics can really knock their systems around as well - I have a note on Jarv's records saying "no Metronidazole" .



He doesn't have an intolerance for chicken, he ate it with no ill effects for the first week he was home!  and as for the antibiotics, well, rather that than an even sicker dog that can't get rid of an infection.

Offline Helen

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Re: Applaws and loose poohs
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2012, 05:32:16 PM »
I'm not sure why you're being so defensive - by posting you're asking for opinions and we're all entitled to give them :D

You say your pup has colitis and that neither you nor your vet know what caused the colitis?  Unless you can eliminate everything that possibly could have caused it then you may find that it may reoccur.  Colitis doesn't happen overnight and it's certainly not unknown for dogs to develop intolerances  ;)

My cocker had colitis and a sensitive stomach and also as a young dog he had HGE so we have had experience of stomach problems  :shades:
helen & jarvis x