Health screening/testing question

[Davyboy16]

Hi,

We are on the search for our new puppy. We lost Jasper last year, 10 years ago when we got him I can't remember anything about health testing/screening. My question is do both mum and dad have to be clear of PRA and FN for the puppy to be clear or just one parent? I understand it is better if both are clear but I seem to be seeing lots of breeders that state mum or dad are clear.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Craig.

[LynneB]

Always better to go with both clear parents. If one is clear and the other is affected but not showing symptoms then the pups could be carriers which can then be passed to the next generation.

[beanbag]

Also make sure that they say DNA CLEAR not just DNA TESTED! They can be DNA tested but that doesnt mean they are clear.

[Jane S]

Sorry I disagree a bit with some of the posts above As long as BOTH parents are DNA tested and one parent is clear/unaffected, none of the resulting progeny will ever be affected. Yes some may be carriers if one of the parents is a tested carrier but carrier status has no significance unless there is an intention to breed in the future (in such cases, good breeders will endorse registrations and make clear in their contracts the implications of possible carrier status and will of course carefully vet homes to ensure pups don't go to irresponsible breeders)

What I find more troubling is the amount of breeders who don't bother testing both parents - they use a tested or genetically clear stud dog so they can say their puppies won't develop prcd_PRA (which is only one of the eye conditions seen in Cockers) or FN but they can't be bothered to test their own bitches (or don't want to spend the money involved in testing) so are only doing half the job a responsible breeder should do. I'm afraid I could not recommend any breeder who hasn't tested both parents - there are plenty of breeders who do test all their dogs so why support the ones who don't?

Don't forget health testing isn't just about the DNA tests - Cockers used for breeding should also have been clinically eye tested including gonioscopy (for pre-disposition to Glaucoma) and ideally be hip scored too.

[LynneB]

Sorry I disagree a bit with some of the posts above As long as BOTH parents are DNA tested and one parent is clear/unaffected, none of the resulting progeny will ever be affected. Yes some may be carriers if one of the parents is a tested carrier but carrier status has no significance unless there is an intention to breed in the future (in such cases, good breeders will endorse registrations and make clear in their contracts the implications of possible carrier status and will of course carefully vet homes to ensure pups don't go to irresponsible breeders)

What I find more troubling is the amount of breeders who don't bother testing both parents - they use a tested or genetically clear stud dog so they can say their puppies won't develop prcd_PRA (which is only one of the eye conditions seen in Cockers) or FN but they can't be bothered to test their own bitches (or don't want to spend the money involved in testing) so are only doing half the job a responsible breeder should do. I'm afraid I could not recommend any breeder who hasn't tested both parents - there are plenty of breeders who do test all their dogs so why support the ones who don't?





Don't forget health testing isn't just about the DNA tests - Cockers used for breeding should also have been clinically eye tested including gonioscopy (for pre-disposition to Glaucoma) and ideally be hip scored too.

I agree Jane but KC endorsements do not always stop people from using their dogs for breeding. As far as I'm concerned Mum and Dad should be DNA tested clear without exception. If this was to happen the diseases would be wiped out completely (I live in La La land )

[Jane S]

I agree Jane but KC endorsements do not always stop people from using their dogs for breeding. As far as I'm concerned Mum and Dad should be DNA tested clear without exception. If this was to happen the diseases would be wiped out completely (I live in La La land )

Sorry to disagree again but to maintain genetic diversity and not lose dogs with something valuable to add to the gene pool, I firmly believe carriers of prcd_PRA can be carefully used in selective breeding programs (it's different to FN which is a fatal disease and also much rarer due to the effective controls already introduced back in the 80s) I think placing too much emphasis on only breeding from prcd_PRA clears has lead to a bit of complacency and perhaps a lack of vision for the bigger picture re breed health  How many breeders do you know who don't eye test now because they think it's enough to DNA test, forgetting or not appreciating that there are other eye conditions out there, including forms of PRA for which there is no DNA test?

Touch wood, no puppy bred by us has ever been used for breeding without our permission - we encourage pet puppies to be neutered when old enough and never sell to other breeders unless they share our attitude to health testing and are known to us personally. We're lucky in that we don't breed many puppies and can be choosy about where they go which makes it easy to keep track of them. I dare say for volume breeders producing multiple litters a year it is all but impossible to be this selective about future homes or to monitor what happens to them in future so yes you might be right for those kind of breeders, they should not be breeding from carriers.

[LynneB]

mmmmmm I suppose if you have an exceptional dog which is a carrier then it could be used but as you say, very carefully. However this does not always happen so IMO both parents should be DNA tested clear and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree

[Jane S]

and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree

Yes we will Incidentally do you eye test (including gonioscopy) your own dogs in addition to the DNA tests and do you ask the same for any studs you use? Just curious as Glaucoma is a far more painful condition than prcd_PRA so it seems a bit contradictory to demand clear DNA tests for both parents but not ask for the results of eye testing/gonioscopy testing

[beanbag]

The breeder where im getting Bonnie from, eye tests all of her dogs as well as DNA testing both mum and dad
My point was just that to enquire the results of the DNA test if it doesnt already say so 

[LynneB]

and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree

Yes we will Incidentally do you eye test (including gonioscopy) your own dogs in addition to the DNA tests and do you ask the same for any studs you use? Just curious as Glaucoma is a far more painful condition than prcd_PRA so it seems a bit contradictory to demand clear DNA tests for both parents but not ask for the results of eye testing/gonioscopy testing

Yes do eye test annually as well although a bit confused about this as a friend of mine with a retriever had clear eye tests for 3 years and then not, so should that boy have been used for stud? Too late when the tests came back as not clear. He was then retired.

I only use my own stud dogs.....it's safer.

[JaspersMum]

What are your thoughts on herediatary clear?

Many are listed as herediatary clear but, as with humans, is enough known to assume that PRA and FN cannot skip generations?  I remember one of the health seminars suggesting that testing should be done every 2nd generation which seems to make sense.

I was completely confused on the eye testing when we had Charlie done and wish we'd waited as Gonioscopy was not available at the show we were tested at!

[LynneB]

Not sure about hereditary clear as I know of one dog from a hereditary clear sire (allegedly)and untested dam who was affected  It could be that there was an unplanned mating. Just awaiting test results.

[Ninasmum]

What are your thoughts on herediatary clear?

Many are listed as herediatary clear but, as with humans, is enough known to assume that PRA and FN cannot skip generations?  I remember one of the health seminars suggesting that testing should be done every 2nd generation which seems to make sense.

I was completely confused on the eye testing when we had Charlie done and wish we'd waited as Gonioscopy was not available at the show we were tested at!

Nina (who has sadly gone onto develop GPRA at 4.5 yrs old) was herediatary clear. She also had the KV/BVA eye test at around 15 mths old, which was clear too.
Both parents were prcd-pra tested clear.  To me (& i'm certainly not discouraging breeders from testing) it does 'throw a spanner in the works' iyswim   
It was such a huge shock when she was diagnosed & i really wouldn't wish any dog to have this awful eye condition.    She sadly is not coping at all well. 
Imho i think every generation should be tested, although that it just my thoughts. 

[Jane S]

I only use my own stud dogs.....it's safer.

Oh right, didn't realise you owned any solids - I remember you had a litter sired by a solid last year who doesn't seem to have any tests except for FN but perhaps the paperwork for his other tests never got through to the KC Not sure I would only want to use just my own studs - it's quite limiting as your own dog may not necessarily be the best match for your girl & continually using the same boy/s on your girls can create a bit of a genetic bottleneck You'd have to keep buying in new males to stop this - an easy way to end up with a lot of dogs very quickly

Nina (who has sadly gone onto develop GPRA at 4.5 yrs old) was herediatary clear. She also had the KV/BVA eye test at around 15 mths old, which was clear too.

Nina's sad case shows why breeders need to keep up the annual eye testing & be aware that other eye conditions besides prcd_PRA are out there - I think you said the specialist says Nina probably has a different form of PRA not covered by the current DNA test so no amount of testing every generation would have revealed this. I do think that hereditary clears should be re-tested every 2 or 3 generations combined with annual clinical testing. Hopefully research will also continue into other forms of PRA and new tests developed in future.

[Sharon]

Sorry but I also agree with Jane, as long as both parents are tested and one of them clear, then there's not a problem.