CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: butterflywings21 on February 19, 2014, 08:29:27 PM
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(http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u650/butterflywings21/KELLYOWEN-PC/2013-2014304_zps9ab85f7a.jpg) (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/butterflywings21/media/KELLYOWEN-PC/2013-2014304_zps9ab85f7a.jpg.html)
(http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u650/butterflywings21/KELLYOWEN-PC/2013-2014303_zpsba8c272c.jpg) (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/butterflywings21/media/KELLYOWEN-PC/2013-2014303_zpsba8c272c.jpg.html)
Twice now I have had people comment on what a lovely Tri colour cocker I have. Tilly was black with a small amount of white on her chin, chest and foot. As the months have gone by she has gained more tan on her face, legs, feet, bottom and underneath her, she has also gained more white on her bottom, feet and underneath and one foot has a red/brown colour.
I can't get good photos at the moment to show these, just her face.
My question is, is she still classed as a Black cocker like her kennel papers???
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Pretty girl :luv: who looks like a black and tan to me, but I can't see any of her white bits. Do you have a photo showing those as well?
Out of curiosity, what colours were her parents?
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I always assumed from your profile pic she was solid black! She has def got some eyebrows now though :luv: Don't tricolours have a lot more white though?
Hudson's tan points have changed colour as he's grown, from quite orangey to more golden/ blonde. He's always obviously been black and tan though.
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here's some photos... Dad is the dog at the back (chocolate and tan), mum with the puppies and an old photo of Tilly and her white bits...
Her white bits on chin and chest have grown she also has white and tan back feet and the colouring goes in between her toes and pads. she has white and blonde looking marks under her back legs and a different colour around her butt. She has more tan going through her legs as well.
When I can get more photos I will (now I have worked out how to post photos quicker).
(http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u650/butterflywings21/KELLYOWEN-PC/2013-2014034_zpsde347e96.jpg) (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/butterflywings21/media/KELLYOWEN-PC/2013-2014034_zpsde347e96.jpg.html)
(http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u650/butterflywings21/KELLYOWEN-PC/2013-2014035_zps32d8dbb1.jpg) (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/butterflywings21/media/KELLYOWEN-PC/2013-2014035_zps32d8dbb1.jpg.html)
(http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u650/butterflywings21/Tilly004_zpse237dda0.jpg) (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/butterflywings21/media/Tilly004_zpse237dda0.jpg.html)
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(http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u650/butterflywings21/2013-2014320_zpsef787f4c.jpg) (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/butterflywings21/media/2013-2014320_zpsef787f4c.jpg.html)
a better photo.
(http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u650/butterflywings21/2013-2014313_zps6e29283e.jpg) (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/butterflywings21/media/2013-2014313_zps6e29283e.jpg.html)
one of her tummy and you can just see the one tip of her foot.
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I think (without meaning to be rude in any way) that in showing terms she's mismarked, which doesn't matter in the slightest as you're not showing her. She has one solid coloured parent (chocolate and tan sire) and one parti-coloured parent (her mum). Solids and partis aren't usually mixed and when they are the result is often puppies that have a mix of colourings and markings.
JaneS would be the person to explain it better :blink: but I think that Tilly's technically a black, white and tan tricolour as she has too much white on her to be a black and tan.
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You're not rude at all. Didn't know they are usually not mixed. I'm glad she was in a way as she is an individual and it suits my household :005: :005:
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I've done Tilly a disservice, having just read this http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/colours.htm which states that there is no such thing as a mismarked particolour, so apologies to Tilly :luv:
There's a picture of a tricolour on the 4th page :blink:
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Ironically, now that she's a parti-colour I'm having to move the thread :lol2:
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She looks like a mismarked black and tan - if she was a tricolour she would have a lot more white all over her body with solid coloured patches and the tan points, like her mother in the photo you've posted or the tricoloured dog in the Cocker Club link. Solid coloured dogs can have white on their chests, faces and paws but still be solids - my Tilly has a huge white patch covering the entire front of her chest, a white chin, some white hairs around her lower belly and white toes on all four paws - she has quite a bit more white on her than your Tilly looks to have in the photos above but she's still a solid liver.
However your Tilly's parentage is confusing as it's not genetically possible for liver and tan and liver, white and tan parents to produce black puppies :-\ Two recessive colours cannot produce a dominant one unless one is a black-pigmented gold.
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She looks like a mismarked black and tan - if she was a tricolour she would have a lot more white all over her body with solid coloured patches and the tan points, like her mother in the photo you've posted or the tricolour dog in the Cocker Club link. Solid coloured dogs can have white on their chests, faces and paws - my Tilly has a huge white patch covering the entire front of her chest, a white chin, some white hairs around her lower belly and white toes on all four paws - she has quite a bit more white on her than your Tilly looks to have in the photos above but she's still a solid liver.
However your Tilly's parentage is confusing as it's not genetically possible for liver and tan and liver, white and tan parents to produce black puppies :-\ Two recessive colours cannot produce a dominant one unless one is a black-pigmented gold.
??? Now I'm confused? Her older sister was black as well.
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Ironically, now that she's a parti-colour I'm having to move the thread :lol2:
so when posting pics I'll have to put her in parti one's.
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I've done Tilly a disservice, having just read this http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/colours.htm which states that there is no such thing as a mismarked particolour, so apologies to Tilly :luv:
There's a picture of a tricolour on the 4th page :blink:
I looked at that photo earlier and loved it.
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If her mum is a liver tricolour in order to produce black pups she would have to have been mated to a dog that carried the dominant black gene as she herself can't carry it (or she'd be a black tricolour). It's not possible for a liver and tan dog to carry this gene either, or he wouldn't be liver and tan, he'd be black and tan as black is dominant to liver. For the liver mum to produce black puppies she had to be mated to a black-carrying dog e.g. a solid black, black and tan, black-pigmented gold.
Genetically liver dogs are bb. Black is either Bb (black carrying liver) or BB (homozygous black). So two bb dogs can't produce a Bb or BB pup, if that makes sense?
Ironically, now that she's a parti-colour I'm having to move the thread :lol2:
so when posting pics I'll have to put her in parti one's.
No, she is a solid black and tan, just with white markings!
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Was her dad def liver and tan and not black and tan? Sometimes Daisy's fur can look a bit chocolateish if she's been out in the sun a lot! (Or in the mud :005: )
She's lovely though, very unusual markings :luv:
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looks like a lovely black and tan to me , tri s have a lot of white in them in my experience , you find that people who don't have cockers who you may meet on walks like to tell you their opinion on cocker all too often , as in, ive had one person telling me what a lovely American cocker my orange roan boy is , I said hes not American and she said oh yes only they do Orange roans in American cockers :rofl1: :rofl1:
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Was just going to say the same as Fluff, is her dad not a black and tan? He looks quite dark in his pic. Did you get a pedigree you could check on? X
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Aw she's lovely :luv:
Our Ellie is down on her
stupid "Dog Lovers Registration"
cert as Tri when she is
clearly blue roan and tan....
:doh:
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Got all her paper work, am going to try and find out. We did meet dad but it was such a whirlwind time that we were all to focused on puppy and her mum and older sister. She does have a lot of cardamine in her papers.
Parents are called cardamine sable classic and cardamine star light, but this means nothing to me.
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just googled and cardamine star light (mum) and she is black white and tan in colour and cardamine sable (dad) is sable colour. I know we meet three adults dogs when we visited them, one being mum and two other males. I must have got confused with which was her dad. Any more views on this??
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So the dad is the other dog in the photo then? He looks like a sable. Not sure if that works genetically? Would have thought sable a recessive combo.
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I was just going to say that going by the name her sire must be a sable and there is a sable dog in the foreground of the photo with the liver and tan one. I'm not 100% 'up' on sable colour inheritance as it doesn't really occur in working Cockers, but I would think that her sire is actually the sable dog as it really can't be the liver and tan one (IF her dam is a liver tricolour as you've said!). I *think* the dog would be either Bbeheh or BBeheh to appear as sable so could then pass on the black B gene (or it could be BB/Bb and then A/a something depending on where they think the sable gene appears!). I could be wrong on that though as I don't know a huge amount about the sable pattern.
However you said that her mother is a liver tricolour and that's what appears to be in the photo, although it's not all that clear, so it's odd that she's coming up as a black tri when you Google her :huh: What colour was she when you saw her?? If the dam is a black tri then the father could still be the liver and tan dog. That's all very confusing!
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to be honest all I remember about mum was she was dark in colour and had a lot of white and was very chilled out. Didn't really take much notice other than that as we were asking so many other questions and the children were playing with the puppies and other dogs.
Can black not come down from other relatives?? just like what happens in humans??
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Even if the dam is a black tri and not a liver going by the name 'Sable Classic' I would assume that the sire is the sable dog. The breeder really should have been a lot clearer with you about who was the sire of the puppies.
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Can black not come down from other relatives?? just like what happens in humans??
At least one of the parents must carry the dominant B black gene for it to be expressed and recessively coloured dogs, e.g. livers, can't carry this gene, it's not possible or they would actually BE black instead of liver. Puppies inherit one copy of each gene from each parent so if it's not there in the parents then it can't be inherited regardless of what colour other relatives are. Genes may not manifest/be expressed in every generation but they have to be there to be passed on, they can't literally 'skip' generations. Two liver (or two liver pigmented red/gold) dogs cannot produce black puppies regardless of what colour their other relatives are.
As an example, my male dog Rodaidh is a liver pigmented gold and he has been mated to two Hearing Dogs litter sisters several times now. One of the bitches is black and the other one is liver pigmented red. With the black bitch he can ONLY produce a mixture of black and liver puppies because she carries the dominant black gene, they both carry the liver gene and she does not carry the red gene. With her red sister however he can ONLY produce liver pigmented red/gold puppies because neither of them carry the dominant black gene and the red/gold gene that both of them carry 'overshadows' the liver coat colour. So even though they are litter sisters it is impossible for them to produce the same colour of puppies when they're mated to a recessively coloured dog like Ro because the two of them are not genetically the same.
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Even if the dam is a black tri and not a liver going by the name 'Sable Classic' I would assume that the sire is the sable dog. The breeder really should have been a lot clearer with you about who was the sire of the puppies.
Yes sire sable classic and dam star light. Just shows how I didn't know a lot when looking for Tilly and how my head went when seeing her and not a lot else mattered. At the end of the day I have the best dog I could ask for in every way, she is a laid back dog that is loyal, happy and easy to train and that I could not get better even if I tried.
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You were lucky and that's great. For others reading though it does underline the importance of finding breeders that know and give all the relevant information though, particularly regarding parentage/health testing etc., as it may not always work out so well.
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This has been a really interesting thread. I often wondered about how it works as Daisy's dam was a liver and her sire a black solid, but her litter had both black and liver pups, so I suppose her sire must have been a liver-carrying black. It all makes sense now, thanks Nicola :)
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This has been a really interesting thread. I often wondered about how it works as Daisy's dam was a liver and her sire a black solid, but her litter had both black and liver pups, so I suppose her sire must have been a liver-carrying black. It all makes sense now, thanks Nicola :)
Yes, if her dam is liver (bb) and her sire is liver-carrying black (Bb) then you'll get a mixture of bb (liver) and Bb (liver-carrying black) puppies. They all inherit the liver b gene from their mum and then either the b or B gene from the dad and that determines whether they look liver or black. It is very interesting; we could look at doing a sticky thread of some sort on colour genetics which we can pin at the top of this board.
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You were lucky and that's great. For others reading though it does underline the importance of finding breeders that know and give all the relevant information though, particularly regarding parentage/health testing etc., as it may not always work out so well.
out of interest what do you mean by that.
also just googled sire side and his mum was black and his dad was golden. would he not carry the black that passes on?? this is all interesting but at the same time confusing (genetics)
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You were lucky and that's great. For others reading though it does underline the importance of finding breeders that know and give all the relevant information though, particularly regarding parentage/health testing etc., as it may not always work out so well.
out of interest what do you mean by that.
also just googled sire side and his mum was black and his dad was golden. would he not carry the black that passes on?? this is all interesting but at the same time confusing (genetics)
A lot of people read the threads on this forum, both members and non-members, so we (moderators) need to point out that while it can sometimes work out ok if a breeder isn't perhaps as clear as they should have been and/or the buyer may not have been sure of what questions to ask, that may not always be the case and it's worth being aware of what to ask and check for when you speak to a breeder and/or go to view a litter - particularly when it comes to parentage and health testing as I said as these really are extremely important.
Would who not carry the black that passes on sorry, do you mean the liver dog or the sable one? If the sable one then yes, he could carry and pass on black as I said in one of my posts above "I *think* the dog would be either Bbeheh or BBeheh to appear as sable so could then pass on the black B gene (or it could be BB/Bb and then A/a something depending on where they think the sable gene appears!)" . If the bitch is actually a black tricolour though its a moot point as the black could/would have come from both of them. If you meant the liver dog though then no, he cannot carry or pass on black regardless of what colour his parents are as genetically he can only be bb (so no B black gene present).
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Thanks for explaining. I asked all the correct questions 're health checks but as a first time owner I don't really know what I'm looking for.
I meant the sable one which is her dad, like I said it was a whirl wind time.
Thank you for taking the time out to explain things more clearly.
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No worries :D Colour genetics is a really interesting subject!
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Aren't they just. I have been looking at tillys certificate and are the high lighted red writing winning show dogs, they have sh ch before the names, also some are germ ch which are also high lighted red.
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Yes Sh Ch stands for (UK) 'show champion' (as opposed to FT - Field trial champion), and anything in red denotes champion status. 'Germ sh ch' would be German show champion.
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Thanks :blink:
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Yes Sh Ch stands for (UK) 'show champion' (as opposed to FT - Field trial champion), and anything in red denotes champion status. 'Germ sh ch' would be German show champion.
(although - just to confuse things... I 'think' on the continent the cockers may have to do some kind of working test in order to qualify for showing? So they don't distinguish between 'show' champions and full champions as in the UK. In the UK any show champion cocker is titled as so unless it passes a working certificate/test in which case it them becomes just 'Champion' as in full champion. That's probably more confusing?!) Anyway, that aside - Tilly is gorgeous :luv: