CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: ips on April 03, 2017, 12:28:56 PM
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Does anyone consider that there dog values verbal praise as much or even more than an edible treat ??
Discuss 😁
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Depends on the situation and how the verbal praise is delivered I think. Not to mention how much verbal praise the dog recieves in general. I pretty much talk to and praise my dog all day long, so if it was going to work as a reward I would have to learn to be less chatty with my dog :005: She gets praise just for being alive and cute, so how would she know when she did something good :lol2:
In a training situation I think verbal praise is not high enough value reward. There should be no dubt that it is a reward, and a"good dog" is just not enough when learning something new. But in other settings when the dog does something she has already learned, then a verbal praise will be good enough to reinforce the behaviour in most cases. A "good girl" gets the tail wagging every time so clearly it's valued by the dog.
Sometimes treats are almost in the way because she is having too much fun to swallow so she inhales them and starts coughing. So for anything with speed I prefer to use a toy or myself to reward. Just playing and jumping around and doing stuff she is entertained by. But let's say you are training recall, praising the dog is not going to compete with a world full of exciting stuff. So in that setting praise is a pretty weak reward. A tug toy however...
So I think the important thing is to use different types of rewards for different situations. I do think praise can be a valuable reward. But not nearly as useful as treats or toys :) I guess it depends on the dog too, some dogs don't care for food rewards, but I dubt many cockers fall in that category :005:
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Interesting, thank you.
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I've read somewhere that food treats actually change the dog's brain chemistry in a significant way, so they are more reinforcing than other types of reward.
I also chat a lot to my dog. He enjoys verbal praise accompanied with a thorough ear rub for one-off events, but food rewards keep him focused on training when it's an ongoing situation.
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I don't "talk" to my dogs, they do get verbal praise and hands on reward, treats are a last resort and useful for reinforcement of much needed positive behaviour.
It's taken a long time but at training yesterday, Coral hunted off lead for around 30 minutes in a field adjacent to sheep ph34r she stayed close, stopped first time every time at distance, found a lost ball from OHs young cocker who bogged off :lol: and recalled every time.........yes, really it was Coral! She even stayed in the same field! :luv:
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I prattle all the time to Blue, and the trainer we saw last week told me to stop it! She said if I'm always blathering, he won't listen any more and I may as well be talking to myself. She was in favour of minimal gas-bagging, and rewards could be either edible or play related.
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My poor deprived dogs don't get food rewards during gundog work or training as I find it just gets in the way of them working properly. And yet both absolutely live for working - because it's what they're bred to do. They only get verbal praise and a stroke or whatever, I suppose their reward comes from working itself and being allowed to do that? I don't want my dogs to recall just because I have cheese in my hand. I want them to recall because it means we're going to do something fun. And I 'condition' this from the day I get them. I do use food rewards when training my one worker for agility - but I can assure you his favourite thing is flushing/retrieving birds sans treats.
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Same here.
I do not use food as a reward anymore (not in the field or when working anyway) i phased it out twelve months ago. Reward now is my verbal praise but mainly reward is continuation of or being released to hunt or to retrieve. Seems dogs are a bit thick and will stop hunting to the whistle purely for the reward of being allowed to hunt on....go figure 😁
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:lol2: - they are funny things! I had an argument on a 'positive gundog' fb group a couple of years ago where one of the admins insisted that verbal reward/ praise means nothing to dogs and only food can work as a reinforcer... they were all a bit hysterical imo - the positive food based training was a bit of a religion for many on there. I think sometimes all the scientific analysis and pontification about training and methodologies obscures the relationship between dogs and humans and just how unique it is :luv:
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Eze got to the stage of refusing edible reward, she looked at me with disgust as if to say "put the cheese away and lets get back to some serious training"
I am convinced that my verbal praise is good enough for her. Hence the topic really.
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Eze got to the stage of refusing edible reward, she looked at me with disgust as if to say "put the cheese away and lets get back to some serious training"
I am convinced that my verbal praise is good enough for her. Hence the topic really.
And we reach the almost inevitable conclusion to pretty much every thread on this very well balanced and reasonable forum, which is that each dog is different and only their own humans know what works best.
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:lol2: - they are funny things! I had an argument on a 'positive gundog' fb group a couple of years ago where one of the admins insisted that verbal reward/ praise means nothing to dogs and only food can work as a reinforcer... they were all a bit hysterical imo - the positive food based training was a bit of a religion for many on there. I think sometimes all the scientific analysis and pontification about training and methodologies obscures the relationship between dogs and humans and just how unique it is :luv:
Sounds like they misunderstood reward based training, typical for the more hysterical type (I should know, I used to be one :005:) I think most people that really start to learn about positive training understand the value og different rewards. One of the most useful things I learned from clickertraining is adapting reward to situation. Dog loves to run? Running is a reward!
But I think in the beginning when teaching new behaviours (not in a working situation) food rewards and toys are very useful. It is much easier when you want to repeat commands. Quick reward and back into it. And it is probably very different training a working dog than a non working. The non working dog might not have 'built in motivation' and needs a reason to perform.
One of the reasons why I use food rewards often is because I have a very excitable dog. And when she gets to hyper there is no learning happening. So if I want her to stay (relatively) calm and focused eating has a calming effect on dogs.
I think learning how to use all types of rewards in suitable situations is super helpful. Food when you want calm focus and repetitions. Toys and playtime when you want speed. Cuddles or food for when you want the dog to relax. And work for working makes perfect sense.
I don't walk around with treats in my pocket anymore. Only for training new stuff or the occasional refresher session. In day to day life some praise or a pet is more than enough to confirm for the dog that she did good. If we did the training right she already knows anyway :)
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And we reach the almost inevitable conclusion to pretty much every thread on this very well balanced and reasonable forum, which is that each dog is different and only their own humans know what works best.
:005: We need some unreasonable fanatics in here! :lol2:
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Speaking only for Archie.....Nope. Verbal praise? Meh! :shades: :005: He will also decide whether a reward is of high enough value to warrant his compliance. ;)
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Murphy is all about a treat as reward, Millie is all about the ball.
If I offer Millie a nice cocktail sausage as reward for a job well done she will completely ignore it if there is a ball in play.
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Eze got to the stage of refusing edible reward, she looked at me with disgust as if to say "put the cheese away and lets get back to some serious training"
I am convinced that my verbal praise is good enough for her. Hence the topic really.
And we reach the almost inevitable conclusion to pretty much every thread on this very well balanced and reasonable forum, which is that each dog is different and only their own humans know what works best.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. One size does not fit all.
I wonder if we inadvertently condition our dogs as to what the reward is. If you praise or clicker and give some cheese does the dog eventually consider cheese to be a reward in that context or is it born with an understanding that food is a reward ????
Same can be said for a ball or anything else that the dog has been introduced to in a reward based context. Maybe the dog isn't telling us what it considers rewarding more that we have conditioned it to be so.
Of course I could be talking utter nonsense 😁
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I don't think dogs think it terms of 'reward' so much as consequences: If I do A, then B will happen. I like B a lot so I will do A to get B.
Eventually the positive feeling they get from B (which is a chemical change in the brain) transfers to A. So dog does A and feels the good feels he got from the A+B combo. Pavlovian conditioning.
i think the concept of 'reward' the way humans think of it is too complex for dogs.
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Exactly my point re second para. " Eventually the positive feeling from B" as in the dog now understands that B must be a good thing worthy of its consideration so B is now highly valued.
Maybe 😁
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What Londongirl said. A reward is just whatever makes the dog feel enjoyment. If you were to condition something to create enjoyment and therefore become a reward then it would not last unless you reinforced it with another reward. A reward has to have some value to a dog on its own. You could teach a dog that doesn't care about balls that balls are fun. But unless the dog actually sees the enjoyment of the ball it will loose interest again. That is the ball will only work as a reward if it is something the dog discovered to be fun or if you continue to use a reward to keep the ball interesting :P Dogs are simple creatures in many way. When I sit they give me a treat so I will sit :)
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[quote Dogs are simple creatures in many way.
[/quote]
I think I must be aswell, this is all getting too complicated for me!! :dunno:
:rofl1: :rofl1:
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[quote Dogs are simple creatures in many way.
I think I must be aswell, this is all getting too complicated for me!! :dunno:
:rofl1: :rofl1:
[/quote]
:005: If it's my post you're struggling with, it could be my english is failing me when I try to explain my theories. Maybe I think I'm making perfect sense, but it's all gibberish :rofl1:
I am not a natural when it comes to dog training so I've read a ton of books. I sometimes get lost in the theory of it all :lol2:
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[quote Dogs are simple creatures in many way.
I think I must be aswell, this is all getting too complicated for me!! :dunno:
:rofl1: :rofl1:
:005: If it's my post you're struggling with, it could be my english is failing me when I try to explain my theories. Maybe I think I'm making perfect sense, but it's all gibberish :rofl1:
I am not a natural when it comes to dog training so I've read a ton of books. I sometimes get lost in the theory of it all :lol2:
[/quote]
Good gracious no, Mari!! I didn't mean that at all - your English is brilliant! - No, I was reading the whole thread through quickly without really taking in its meaning properly I got lost long before your comment!! :005:
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[quote Dogs are simple creatures in many way.
I think I must be aswell, this is all getting too complicated for me!! :dunno:
:rofl1: :rofl1:
:005: If it's my post you're struggling with, it could be my english is failing me when I try to explain my theories. Maybe I think I'm making perfect sense, but it's all gibberish :rofl1:
I am not a natural when it comes to dog training so I've read a ton of books. I sometimes get lost in the theory of it all :lol2:
[/quote]
All made sense to me, English seems much better than most English folk 😁
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Good :) Because sometimes I read my own sentences and get confused by myself so I'm sure there must be some posts that make less sense than I think they do. Especially with stuff like this, because it is difficult to understand and keep straight in my opinion, but it is so very interesting! Especially the idea that we can condition something into being a reward. Never thought of it that way, but I guess that's what we're doing with a lot of dog activities. Sled dogs running for the joy of running are a good example. But I do think there has to be some interest to build on for it to work.
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Aaaaagh...Was going to ask re treats as rewards.I am trying to not give a treat so often as a reward mainly because Rosie is getting wide around the beam, have swapped to normal kibble as much as poss, but really need something more highend for recall.But so far all Her training has been treat based , there isnt a toy with a high enough value to Her to replace a 'sweet' and when I attempt to just praise I get the 'yeh, right ,I did as asked now make with the treat' look.Have cut down Her meal to compensate but then She spends Her time 'hoovering' and I feel guilty.Tried changing treats to carrot etc but to little success, She will actually spit out something if it is not to Her high expectations.
Think main problem is this dog is spoiled rotten and probably cleverer than me........
Ps I too chat to Her, but its a different tone to commands.
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Just for fun in order of what eze values as a reward.
Retrieving a bird
Hunting for a bird
Ball
Retrieving a dummy
Edible treat
Not sure were verbal praise belongs but it is valued
So, a few things available to use BUT were do we stand if the highest value reward is the thing we don't want. For example eze is generally reliably steady BUT on occasions will lose her head in the presence of high numbers of birds. As birds are the highest reward offering a biscuit will not stop the chase / run in, neither will a ball. I found early on that even dummies have a value above biscuits. If your pooch values food above everything else training would be relatively straight forward but I doubt anyone's cocker would turn down a chase of a bird for a biscuit.
My point if indeed there is one is this, is a biscuit really that high up the value ladder or do we just think it is and have conditioned the dog from an early age to consider it so ????
Ps
I know that possible replies are "the food is a marker to tell the dog it did good" but a verbal good girl/boy will act as a marker as it too is low down the list of value ??
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It may just be the high-wire act that the gundog handler has to tread, when the highest value reward is sometimes out of your control.
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i think the instinct to chase prey is just higher - particularly in a working bred dog. It's wired to find and chase and ultimately catch prey. some of the supposed 'positive only' type trainers advocate starving your dog for a day or so to increase the value of the food rewards, and only feeding dogs by hand... it's only us who impose the rules of stopping on flush. if stopping on flush ultimately leads to getting the bird (i.e a retrieve) then this is the ultimate reward (for stopping). again, because that's what they're wired to do. with other breeds of dog, a food reward may be higher up the reward value chain because their prey drive is lower. however, the 'positive only' crew have the right idea in some respects as all dogs have to eat... and the hungrier they are the more value a food reward will hold as a reinforcer of good bahaviour. but imo it's very unlikely to stop a dog chasing once it's already engaged in that activity if that makes any sense.
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It may just be the high-wire act that the gundog handler has to tread, when the highest value reward is sometimes out of your control.
exactly. which is why gundog training has to be done so very carefully - with strict limits to exposure to game early on prior to brakes being installed. and why so many dogs on shoots get progressively worse through the season and end up wild after a few successive ones. I think this is also why some form of reprimand is necessary when training working dogs as well. only rewarding the desired behavior can lead to very quick unraveling of training if a dog learns there are no repercussions for self-rewarding. (not advocating any kind of overly harsh discipline, but the dogs need strict boundaries).
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All good points.
Yes training a dog to work is not really comparable to general obedience and I find that once your in the birds one has to think on your feet or "bad things" happen within an instant.
I am always mindful of how confusing it must be for the dog. One minute you tell it to hunt then your bollocking it for doing so. The beating dog Imo has to be the most biddable and have the greatest self control. It is my opinion that nothing compares with the excitement and general feeling of pride in your dog when on a beating line when your dog hunts well in hard cover and complies with stop and recall and heels when required. It is possibly the best thing you can do with your day BUT conversely nothing compares with the feeling of despair when your dog loses its head. Luckily in two seasons at two shoots on the rare occasion that she has gone over the threshold no damage has been done, phew. 😁
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haha - yes they do! a friend mentioned recently that that was the biggest lesson for her - learning to think and respond really quickly to situations to prevent and transgressions.
I don't think it should be confusing because you're telling it to hunt - when you say so. not bollocking it randomly. stop should mean stop, hunt on should mean hunt on. when pip stops or turns when I ask I praise him. I don't think he's confused by it. it's the same with retrieving - they only go when you ask and if they run in they get told off. the decisions are the handler's as to when to go/not.
which means yes, a properly controlled beating dog is an example of a very well trained responsive dog. am always a bit disappointed that 'just beating' is never held in as high regard as 'picking up'. imo a really decent beating dog requires far more control and training. (plus i think it's more fun). but that's a whole other discussion.
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Totally agree, beaters and beating dogs seem to be considered low down on the scale however the discipline required is Imo far greater than a picking up or peg dog.
Anyway we digress 😁
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Aaaaagh...Was going to ask re treats as rewards.I am trying to not give a treat so often as a reward mainly because Rosie is getting wide around the beam, have swapped to normal kibble as much as poss, but really need something more highend for recall.But so far all Her training has been treat based , there isnt a toy with a high enough value to Her to replace a 'sweet' and when I attempt to just praise I get the 'yeh, right ,I did as asked now make with the treat' look.Have cut down Her meal to compensate but then She spends Her time 'hoovering' and I feel guilty. Tried changing treats to carrot etc but to little success, She will actually spit out something if it is not to Her high expectations.
Think main problem is this dog is spoiled rotten and probably cleverer than me........
Ps I too chat to Her, but its a different tone to commands.
Have you tried using yourself as a reward for recall? Run around like an idiot, roll on the ground, wrestle and play tag, play with a tug toy (and let the dog win). This usually works better than treats for recall in my experience. Unless your dog really is not interested in playing at all, they tend to like it when we clown around with them.
Regarding healthy treats, if you mix a bag of kibble with some fruit, veggies and something smelly like liver, cheese or sausage in the morning, then all of it will smell very good after a few hours. That smell might give kibble, carrots and cucumber higher value since smell is more important than taste for dogs :) The unpredictability hould help too, she will never know of its liver or carrot until she tries it. Promise of a potential jackpot is a trick that works on both humans and dogs. I used to cook and dry liver for this purpose. Stank up the house, but brilliant for a treat bag :005:
My dog is also spoiled rotten and it's definitely because she is more clever than me! She is better at training me than I am at training her :lol2:
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Yep, done the jumping up and down and shouting 'quick' which means game on but this doesnt work once the nose is on the ground and She is in the zone and I use dried sprats as the ultimate treat...boy does everything stink...On our walk today I just tried praise for general good behaviour and treat for recall with some success, guess this is yet another work in progress.But today was a calm day, tomorrow could be a whole different ball game.Hadnt thought of putting carrot etc in with the sprats, will try that. She had a hair cut today, I really like the wild and woolly look but it was time and I came home with a dog half the size I thought She was, if only a hair cut would do that for me.