training methods

[ips]

I have never really given much thought to "methods" as I have just muddled along using various ideas from various sources and made much of it up myself. This "none method" has possibly hindered proceedings and I may stick to one particular method next time. Anyway there seems to be so many different "methods" out there that it is very confusing for many (including me) of all the different ways the one that seems closest to the way I do things is "shaping" but without the clicker. This brings me too the question, is it feesable to introduce the clicker at this stage in order to polish a few things as in a nearly three year old. I would not be so bold to call her fully trained but she has worked two seasons beating and has picked up and is generally biddable.
Any thoughts

[Joules]

It's never too late to introduce the clicker. It just gives you one more way to teach new behaviours and keep it interesting. 

[Mari]

Agree with Joules, never too late to introduce the clicker 

I started out by reading a ton of books on positive reinforcement training and clicker training. For me that theory is the only way to go. But I realised that no two dogs are the same, so you actually can't follow one method to the letter. I sometimes overcomplicated things in my efforts to be the perfet positive trainer. Sometimes common sense works better because it suits your own style and the dog responds to you being comfortable with what you're doing.
In my opinion really good trainers follow a theory based on modern learning psychology, but they adjust the method to fit the dog. So probably similar to what you allready do 
The theory behind clicker training is brilliant, I always base all training on positive reinforcement. But I rarely use the actual clicker anymore. It is a really helpful tool in training new behaviours, but the important thing is the theory and the timing. I only bring the clicker out for teaching something entirely new or for fun now.
I think the best way to go is to learn the theory of clicker training and then with that knowledge as a base do it your way. Being flexible enough to "muddle along using various sources" is probably a good thing 

[ips]

Thanks joules.
I am very interested in trying it. I think I avoided it early on due to a perceived idea that it was a bit mamby pamby for gundog trainers 😁 with hindsight I think it could be a useful tool. I understand that timing is critical (obviously) and that one must first "load the clicker". My only concern is that once you start are you then not stuck with a "clingy" dog expecting treats for every action ?
I trained initially with food treats but have all but faded them out now that the behaviours are learned, is this the same for clicker training is must it be ongoing ?

[ips]

Agree with Joules, never too late to introduce the clicker 

I started out by reading a ton of books on positive reinforcement training and clicker training. For me that theory is the only way to go. But I realised that no two dogs are the same, so you actually can't follow one method to the letter. I sometimes overcomplicated things in my efforts to be the perfet positive trainer. Sometimes common sense works better because it suits your own style and the dog responds to you being comfortable with what you're doing.
In my opinion really good trainers follow a theory based on modern learning psychology, but they adjust the method to fit the dog. So probably similar to what you allready do 
The theory behind clicker training is brilliant, I always base all training on positive reinforcement. But I rarely use the actual clicker anymore. It is a really helpful tool in training new behaviours, but the important thing is the theory and the timing. I only bring the clicker out for teaching something entirely new or for fun now.
I think the best way to go is to learn the theory of clicker training and then with that knowledge as a base do it your way Being flexible enough to "muddle along using various sources" is probably a good thing 

Great post Mari.
That makes a lot of sense and has answered some of my thoughts.
I fully agree that one must adapt to the dog in front of you or more importantly the "relationship" and how you "interact" with your dog. 👍 maybe my "muddling along" method is not quite as haphazard as I thought 😁

[Mari]

My only concern is that once you start are you then not stuck with a "clingy" dog expecting treats for every action ?

Nope, because you only reward for every repetition in the beginning, during the learning phase. Once the behaviour is linked to the command and the dog is doing it reliably every time you ask, then you fade out the rewards. They don't need the click every time when they know they are doing the right thing. So you reward more sporadicly and fade out rewards just like with other positive reinforcement training. And it sounds like you already are familiar with that concept The clicker just helps with the timing in positive reinforcement training, theory is mostly the same.

[ips]

Thanks for clarification.
So really the method I currently use remains the same. Shape the behaviour but use the clicker to mark the wanted behaviour more precisely than a "good girl" any attempt at what you want gets a click and a reward then only mark the more "perfect" behaviours untill eventually fade out over time by only treating"exceptionally" well carried out wanted behaviours ??
If I am correct then it should be a doddle as the above is fundamentally how I approach training  😉

[Mari]

Yes, that is the basics of it

I've always been bad at shaping, so I mostly capture behaviours and finetune them in the way you describe. Or I "cheat" and use a target stick/target pad or strategically placed rewards. But it's so much fun to see a dog that is trained using a lot of shaping, you can see their brains working really hard to figure out what the trainer wants rather than constantly waiting for cues from the trainer. Very cool method!

[LisaL]

I have used clicker training with both my previous dogs with great success. Not jus to teach basic behaviour but specific tricks too (pointless but great fun) With Diesel were still charging the clicker as he's more focussed on the treat coming so very focussed on me anyway than relating it to the actual click at this point.

[ips]

Ok, so. One of the things I want to polish is heel. She comes to heel no problem BUT occasionally she will start to pull forward (especially on a beating line with temptation of scent and birds) traditionally pooch would be dragged back but I don't do physical correction. I want heel to mean heel until I release. At the moment in these scenarios of high temptation it takes constant nagging. Would the clicker be of any use in training or rather improving heel and if so how would I start.

[Mari]

That is a tough one, way too difficult for my level so hopefully someone else has better and more specific advise. I have mostly worked with fear agression in dogs, and teaching them to trust the world and behave like civilized members of society

But one very general thing I've learned is that positive reinforcement training is about training up to something. It has one disadvantage and that is that training takes time, effort and patience. In the moment, when adrenaline is high, it is almost impossible to reach a cocker. So the reward based training must be started on an easy level and then you work up to the final goal.

Training heel in different scenarios with less temptation should help. When heel is perfect without disturbance then add something that is distracting, but not too distracting. Someone playing with a ball or running around shouting maybe. Keep adding distractions until she is so good at heel that she can do it in every situation.

Oh, and obviously with such a difficult goal the reward needs to be high value and action filled

Added: I never trained that kind of heel. But I have used clicker to train walking without pulling. And by the end she was actually heeling so I had to train less because that wasn't my goal. What I did was change directions alot and rewarding her for following with a loose lead between us. So if she wanted to earn clicks she had to really focus on my movements. I also rewarded any time she offered eyecontact. Started out with no distractions and moved to more challenging enviroments. Not sure if this helps at all

[Londongirl]

You are right that the clicker is basically a highly effective marker of the behaviour you want, but when you see it in action, you'll realise how powerful it is. For one, the sound of the click is much more attention grabbing for Henry than anything I can do with my voice. It means a precise thing and always sounds the same (like a whistle). Second, once you get the timing, marking the EXACT moment the dog does what you want is incredibly reinforcing.

With the heel work, you can click the instant she is exactly where you want her, and, if you chose, intermittently when she stays there. I haven't trained heel work, but I've used the clicker to really sharpen behaviours we already have. Henry had a 'lacksidasical' sit - he'd do it when he wanted, in his own sweet time. A few sessions with the clicker reinforced that I wanted an immediate sit - at first I clicked and treated every reasonably prompt sit. Then I only clicked and rewarded quick ones. And then only the instant ones. It's a great way to fade out behaviours that are only approximations of what you want but the dog has decided are good enough!

[lescef]

I use the clicker every now and again. I did sometimes  find it difficult managing three things - leads, whistle, treats etc. But I do like it for shaping and watching the dog try to work out what you want them to do!
The clicker also carries no emotion so nothing can be transferred via your voice.  Our trainer advised me to use a clicker with Maddie's fear aggression as my voice was full of tension and 'transferring down the lead'

[LisaL]

I trained heelwork with my last cocker with the clicker. As people have mentioned its a slow process. 3 steps, click reward, 3 steps click reward, 4 steps etc. I found doing a slow jog was more interesting for the dog to keep up with than walking initially.

[ips]

Thanks, that is all good info.

To date I have trained by changing / shaping the behaviour. For instance the break away from a bird became a break from flush and ultimately shaped into a sit or stop to flush. Her retrieves and directions are good, she loves the three card trick 😁  her hunting is good.. So most things are good (to my eyes anyway) I just need to get on top of this pulling forward from heel when temptation of the flush point is upon us. It is very very difficult without using aversives I fear. Stop is another thing that "can" fall apart not always but again if the temptation is too much.
Maybe my expectations are too high, I am by nature a perfectionist and also impatient which means I am rarely fully satisfied with a job.

I think I may give the clicker a go but how effective it will be for what I need remains to be seen.