Author Topic: training methods  (Read 2469 times)

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Offline Mari

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Re: training methods
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2017, 05:06:50 PM »
I find that anything that requires slowing down is extremely difficult to teach a cocker, it takes so much longer to teach them to stop and stay than to do anything active. But I'm thinking it could help if you train impulse control in different settings too. Imo that's the sort of training that helps all other training go easier. Just doing sessions to improve impulse control and help them to cope with frustration (frustration of having to wait/go slow). I'm sure you'll get there, didn't you post the impressive video of her sitting perfectly while you throw dummies?

Hope this doesn't sound bad, because I'm a huge fan of positive reinforcement training and I would never use aversives. But I have realised that it is possible to correct behaviour without actually punishing. I would never yank the leash or yell or anything like that. But having a command that means "wrong" or actually physically guiding the dog, allthough not really clicker theory, can be quite useful. I would always go for the clicker way first, but as you say, this is difficult stuff, so much instinct is involved.

But of course, I'm just talking general training methods, I've never trained a hunting dog. I just think this is really interesting :)

Offline ips

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Re: training methods
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2017, 05:23:37 PM »
Mari
Yes she is steady as a rock with dummies (yes was my vid) and generally reliable. It probably sounds a bigger issue than it is. These misdemeanours are not "that often". I think you have hit the nail on the head re the impulse control. Now that everything is pretty much trained and understood I am concentrating purely on trying to calm her (yes I laughed when I typed it, good luck with that I hear you all say 😁) and get her able to control her instinct when under a lot of pressure. As you know its all well and good being steady on dummies and steady to flush but at the end of a drive particularity early season we are in huge amounts of birds and huge amounts of scent and the general level of excitement of a shoot. The dogs at this specific moment are under enormous temptation and pressure.

I heard a saying a while ago that I shall plagiarize "my dog never breaks said no man ever" in other words dogs instinct is always simmering away waiting to boil over.

I will try anything once BUT I have and never will raise a hand to her, I have no issues with growling at her when she has blatantly ignored a command that I know she fully understands. She also knows from my demeanour if I am less than impressed 😁
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Offline Mari

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Re: training methods
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2017, 05:49:58 PM »
Calming a cocker  :rofl1:

Mari
Yes she is steady as a rock with dummies (yes was my vid) and generally reliable. It probably sounds a bigger issue than it is. These misdemeanours are not "that often".

It doesn't sound like issues at all. Sounds like she is a really good dog and gets as much training as a dog can dream of. I just like talking training theory :005: Sometimes someone will mention a method that I have forgotten about that is really useful.

Offline ips

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Re: training methods
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2017, 06:09:59 PM »
Me too Mari, I like trying to work out what works, or not as the case may be and I enjoy discussing it with other more experienced than I. I am beginning to think that a hybrid method can work and that one does not necessarily need to sign up to one specific regime. Its as though one method works well for one specific thing but not for another so it a case of thinking on your feet so to speak. For instance I tried many different methods to steady her to a thrown dummie and was getting no were fast after six months, so I threw the hypothetical book away and did something else which included something that your not supposed to do, but it worked.

Ps
The not supposed to do thing was to get after her when she ran in and read her the riot act as she picked the dummy. This supposedly is punishing the retrieve (the last act before the reprimand) but in my head she knew by now what I wanted but chose not todo ut so I reckon she knew what she was in bother for despite my poor timing 😁
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Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: training methods
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2017, 06:14:35 PM »
Training a "look at me"  is very effective with the clicker Ian. Humphrey tends to be a step in front when walking to heel, I've been getting him to "look" as soon as he starts to move too far forward, I then click and treat holding  my hand where his head should be, so  that he has to stay in line to get the treat. Don't know if that might help you?


We went to a dog club on Sunday, by the way, and were welcomed with "ahhhh yes, a cocker spaniel, you can reckon on him being fully trained by the time he's about 12!!! "  :005: - I actually found that quite reassuring as at last there's someone there that's not got any unrealistic expectations of us, so I don't feel under quite so much pressure!!

Offline ips

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Re: training methods
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2017, 07:39:50 PM »
Thanks BL yes that is helpful .

12 ...ruddy ell, I better get a spurt on 😁
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Offline Joules

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Re: training methods
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2017, 08:17:35 PM »

We went to a dog club on Sunday, by the way, and were welcomed with "ahhhh yes, a cocker spaniel, you can reckon on him being fully trained by the time he's about 12!!!"  :005: 

I have also heard that "Labradors are born half trained: spaniels die half trained"  :rofl1: :rofl1:

At least they are never dull  ph34r  :005:
Julie and Watson

Offline ips

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Re: training methods
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2017, 08:19:06 PM »
Yep I have heard that 😁
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Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: training methods
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2017, 09:42:49 PM »
Thanks, that is all good info.

To date I have trained by changing / shaping the behaviour. For instance the break away from a bird became a break from flush and ultimately shaped into a sit or stop to flush. Her retrieves and directions are good, she loves the three card trick 😁  her hunting is good.. So most things are good (to my eyes anyway) I just need to get on top of this pulling forward from heel when temptation of the flush point is upon us. It is very very difficult without using aversives I fear. Stop is another thing that "can" fall apart not always but again if the temptation is too much.
Maybe my expectations are too high, I am by nature a perfectionist and also impatient which means I am rarely fully satisfied with a job.

I think I may give the clicker a go but how effective it will be for what I need remains to be seen.
Perhaps you are a bit too much of a perfectionist 😜. Eze sounds fine. My dog Pip is very good in the beating line - very responsive to turn and stop whistle and has never ruined a drive. However sometimes we have to wait right near a flushing point where birds are going up and then falling and Pip gets super excited watching as he is mad for retrieving after shot. So I put him on lead. As I feel it's a huge amount of pressure on him expecting him to sit there watching loads of birds coming down in front of him with no prospect of an immediate retrieve...  I think we see these super well trained trial dogs looking impeccable and think ours should be the same. But really, most of the trial dogs aren't exposed to that extreme pressure/temptation all day. I also just put pip on lead between drives if he can't control himself and just hares about hunting. It's the pressure/excitement again. I feel putting him on lead stops me nagging him and allows him to relax a bit. I feel it's huge discipline and strain him having to be obedient while beating or waiting to pick up. Heeling in between off lead is further stress that he probably could do without. I also think that many of the dogs you see on shoots just milling about behind their handlers most of the day aren't shall we say 'high drive' types.  Dunno if any of that makes sense?!  Just my opinion.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline ips

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Re: training methods
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2017, 11:28:10 AM »
Thanks, that is all good info.

To date I have trained by changing / shaping the behaviour. For instance the break away from a bird became a break from flush and ultimately shaped into a sit or stop to flush. Her retrieves and directions are good, she loves the three card trick 😁  her hunting is good.. So most things are good (to my eyes anyway) I just need to get on top of this pulling forward from heel when temptation of the flush point is upon us. It is very very difficult without using aversives I fear. Stop is another thing that "can" fall apart not always but again if the temptation is too much.
Maybe my expectations are too high, I am by nature a perfectionist and also impatient which means I am rarely fully satisfied with a job.

I think I may give the clicker a go but how effective it will be for what I need remains to be seen.
Perhaps you are a bit too much of a perfectionist 😜. Eze sounds fine. My dog Pip is very good in the beating line - very responsive to turn and stop whistle and has never ruined a drive. However sometimes we have to wait right near a flushing point where birds are going up and then falling and Pip gets super excited watching as he is mad for retrieving after shot. So I put him on lead. As I feel it's a huge amount of pressure on him expecting him to sit there watching loads of birds coming down in front of him with no prospect of an immediate retrieve...  I think we see these super well trained trial dogs looking impeccable and think ours should be the same. But really, most of the trial dogs aren't exposed to that extreme pressure/temptation all day. I also just put pip on lead between drives if he can't control himself and just hares about hunting. It's the pressure/excitement again. I feel putting him on lead stops me nagging him and allows him to relax a bit. I feel it's huge discipline and strain him having to be obedient while beating or waiting to pick up. Heeling in between off lead is further stress that he probably could do without. I also think that many of the dogs you see on shoots just milling about behind their handlers most of the day aren't shall we say 'high drive' types.  Dunno if any of that makes sense?!  Just my opinion.

Perfect sense. I see a lot of eve and I in that, very similar to how we work the trouble is she is worse on a lead but I am working on that too. As for FT dogs you are correct from what I understand those dogs will never have the pressure of a beating line.
Cheers
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Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: training methods
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2017, 02:06:08 PM »
Pip is appalling on lead.  So I do the lazy thing and make a figure of 8 with slip lead to go over his nose  ;)
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline JeffD

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Re: training methods
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2017, 05:49:47 PM »
There is an old saying "The way to ruin a good dog is to take it shooting" All of my dogs over the last 40 years have been perfect until about 18 months and they went shooting.

It really does depend on what you want out of your dog. Most of my shooting was walked up rough shooting, rabbit shooting and wildfowling.
My dogs all ran in to the fall of a bird and chased rabbits. Shooting ducks in the dark I relied on my dogs to know when a bird was hit and to retrieve it asap so they learnt to run in they knew when a bird was hit more often than I did. If they had waited for a command birds would have been lost in the tide of the estuary.

A great deal of my shooting was  rabbits in fact for 3 years I worked as a professional rabbit and pigeon shooter making most of my money from selling game I had shot. The ground I worked was mostly hill covered with gorse some patches of gorse  could be 30 or 40 yards long  dogs would go in one end and rabbits would come out the other end normally with a spaniels 20 yards behind.
I once asked Peter Moxon a very famous trainer at the time how to stop my  dogs from chasing rabbits his first answer was don't take them rabbit shooting I explained the sort of rabbit shooting I had and he said " so you want your dogs to chase rabbits 30 or 40 yards through gorse and the magically stop when it suits you, good luck mate" he said.

So my dogs would not win trials, and at the posh shoots they were on leads at times but they were great shooting partners, I often gained shooting through my dogs reputations they were hard bold dogs even Henry the show cocker
I rarely ever used a whistle or gave them recall we shot at least 4 times a week and sometimes 6 days a week they learnt their jobs and I trusted them to do the job I needed.
Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly

Offline ips

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Re: training methods
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2017, 07:33:09 PM »
There is an old saying "The way to ruin a good dog is to take it shooting" All of my dogs over the last 40 years have been perfect until about 18 months and they went shooting.

It really does depend on what you want out of your dog. Most of my shooting was walked up rough shooting, rabbit shooting and wildfowling.
My dogs all ran in to the fall of a bird and chased rabbits. Shooting ducks in the dark I relied on my dogs to know when a bird was hit and to retrieve it asap so they learnt to run in they knew when a bird was hit more often than I did. If they had waited for a command birds would have been lost in the tide of the estuary.

A great deal of my shooting was  rabbits in fact for 3 years I worked as a professional rabbit and pigeon shooter making most of my money from selling game I had shot. The ground I worked was mostly hill covered with gorse some patches of gorse  could be 30 or 40 yards long  dogs would go in one end and rabbits would come out the other end normally with a spaniels 20 yards behind.
I once asked Peter Moxon a very famous trainer at the time how to stop my  dogs from chasing rabbits his first answer was don't take them rabbit shooting I explained the sort of rabbit shooting I had and he said " so you want your dogs to chase rabbits 30 or 40 yards through gorse and the magically stop when it suits you, good luck mate" he said.

So my dogs would not win trials, and at the posh shoots they were on leads at times but they were great shooting partners, I often gained shooting through my dogs reputations they were hard bold dogs even Henry the show cocker
I rarely ever used a whistle or gave them recall we shot at least 4 times a week and sometimes 6 days a week they learnt their jobs and I trusted them to do the job I needed.

That was a great read Jeff and certainly puts things into perspective 😊
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Offline ips

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Re: training methods
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2017, 09:37:18 AM »
Update
Haven't tried the clicker yet but having researched "capturing" and "shaping" it seems that I have been doing a version of these all along without even knowing it. So to put it to the test I have been training her a new "behaviour" but with more thought in what and how I am doing it.

A few times in the evening I sit at the kitchen table to smoke a cigar (terrible habit I know) eze brings tv remote then glasses case then slippers etc etc. I have never told her off which is why she will retrieve a pheasant, partridge, woodcock with vigour but now that this live retrieving is well and truly tested and proofed I thought I would use the scenario to train something else that I want which is eze sitting, lying or just mooching around at my feet whenever I stop on the beating line, so. I am now four days in and its already very close to being reliable (in the kitchen anyway)

I started to ignore the household items and not give her a reward ie biscuit or any verbal at all. The first few occasions she brought a couple of items then realised something wasn't working and she sat, I instantly gave a "good girl" a few times she lay down which also got a "good girl" the amount of items brought got less over a few days and the last six or so occasions I think only once did she bring an item all other times she has sat or lay down (went to sleep twice) at my feet and waited patiently until I had finished my cigar and then every other"ish" occasion treated with a biscuit.

Cant believe how quickly this method works and I can really see now how and why you could add a clicker into it.
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Offline Blueberry

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Re: training methods
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2017, 10:24:41 AM »
A clicker worked very well for Blue, but not for me.  I have a connective tissue disorder which affects my hands and I just didn't have the manual dexterity necessary to operate the clicker consistently at the right moment to mark the behaviour, so I ended up reinforcing all the wrong bits!  I've been told that some use a click of the tongue or a key word instead, which would certainly work better for me.