Author Topic: My wife and I are really worried about Bella  (Read 2264 times)

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Offline Koslg

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2017, 06:29:35 AM »
Hi. Cocker puppies are a big handful but look so innocent!
1.  Go to a vet
2. Possibly get a recommended behaviourist. Your vet could recommend one.
3.  Avoid the cage for a bit - maybe both of you should leave it.
4. Humbug sleeps next to me on the bed. At times with his head on the pillow too - or leaning on me. Or across my feet. Or across the bottom including my side. Or like a frog compeletely flat. When he wants to wake me he leans part of him on me. Or stares at me until I open my eyes!
I get disturbed most nights. But love it.

Good luck. Xx

Offline AlanT

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2017, 07:54:21 PM »
I've had Terriers before and quickly learned that a Cocker needs completely different handling.
They are smart and willful but anxious and sensitive at the same time.

I wore gloves, thick ones, when handling mine as a pup, for a while.  No gloves now but I use a muzzle for stuff like getting thorns and stones out of paws. 

Only gradually can you earn trust.  No rough stuff, ever.  Your weapons are BOREDOM, NOT-RESPONDING. IGNORING THEM and BLATANT BRIBERY as a reward.

I did lots of ball-training and agility and LOTS of exercise.  This worked pretty quickly.  We bonded and now he just wants to work for me.




Offline hoover

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2017, 12:45:20 AM »
The way you describe her behaviour is quite full on..sounds like guarding..of resources (the chews) and location (the crate) with associated body handling issues (bad reaction when you pick her up).  Apparently they commonly co-occur according to behaviourists like Jean Donaldson ('Mine') That was our lived experience as Ollie did all 3 as well, although the location guarding and the body handling issues are pretty much non existent now at 20 months we still see a bit of reduced resource guarding.  Scary to see it happen as it is like your dog has been taken to another world for several seconds and all they have in them is a bewilderingly ferocious response that is lost to itself, beyond you, until they pull themselves away from it those few seconds later.

If your dog is anything like mine was it will be exacerbated by tiredness as you seem to be decribing ..to give you an example, Ollie will rarely resource guard anything when he is wakeful now, but if he has fallen asleep and he is disturbed he will often come to and look around him for something to guard - anything at all, things that he would never normally show any interest in, he will crouch over and guard.  Goes to show what an inbuilt drive it can be ..so make sure your dog gets plenty of sleep.

Keep yourselves safe and of course anyone else your dog comes into contact with, especially children.  You have to manage this behaviour and address it slowly.  To be honest, we would absolutely have used assertive methods (what some people might call dominance) if we had thought this would have worked..the reality was any attempt at challenge to our dog's ferocious behaviour just resulted in an escalated, even more dangerous response.  I hated this because we had to back away and to my mind that was teaching the dog that his aggressive behaviour worked ..but we couldn't keep ourselves safe with any other means.

Offline AlanT

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2017, 08:31:45 AM »
No high value chews that LAST.  Stuff that can be chewed up and consumed, in a short while, avoids problems.
Don't set-up situations that invite trouble.

Don't react or challenge this behaviour.  Just ignore it.  Back-off and leave bored and lonely.

Might feel wrong at first.  But I was doing just this for many months.
You behave like you want the dog to.  If you fight then so will he. 

Just walking past his bed would get me a warning.
Putting my hand in his bed would invite a bite.

At three years old I can give a Beef-bone and when I think he's had enough,  10 mins maybe,  I can just take it.


Offline Sumava Cockers

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2017, 09:44:52 AM »
+1 to what Hoover wrote.

Thanks. Well put......and more elegantly worded than my previously clumsy attempt to express something similar.

If a dog is so aggressive that its biting to the bone,  the safety of the owner and anyone else who comes into contact with her is of prime importance.  After that the aggression can be addressed.
Sarka, Jon and Barnaby B

Offline ips

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2017, 10:54:26 AM »
I have no experience of such things as eze is not aggresive in any way and will give me anything if I tell her to with a "dead" command. I would be somewhat concerned about the relationship if i could not walk past her cage or put my hand near it or take things from her without a growl or worse still a bight. Any dog that displays this behaviour to its handler surely does not understand its place within the family group  !!!!
Muddling along in the hope that one day it all makes sense.

Offline hoover

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2017, 05:03:10 PM »
I have no experience of such things as eze is not aggresive in any way and will give me anything if I tell her to with a "dead" command. I would be somewhat concerned about the relationship if i could not walk past her cage or put my hand near it or take things from her without a growl or worse still a bight. Any dog that displays this behaviour to its handler surely does not understand its place within the family group  !!!!

I kind of agree to an extent with this sentiment but when these aggressive displays are happening you can not always safely help a dog understand its place - teeth tend to win out. If a dog decides to escalate according to your response it is an unfortunate learning episode for the dog - it essentially learns 'o look what I can do to try to control this situation - I have teeth and I can use them'.  Every time a dog practices higher forms of aggression is a bad day as it will recall this and may resort to it more frequently in the future.  I do subscribe to trying to be more gently, firmly authoritative the rest of the time however - using things like 'Nothing in life is free' dog training as this should generally try to set up a more respectful attitude from your dog - and when this relationship is in place I think the dog is less likely to demonstrate bad behaviour even at times of stress.  That's also why I think children can tend to be victims of dog bites more - aside from the fact that they may act in certain ways that are more risky towards dogs and can suffer more serious bites to faces rather than hands, I think dogs can tend to respect children less as they often don't have the same air of authority that adults can have, and dogs can feel more free to assert themselves more. 

I also think you get lucky or unlucky with a dog - before Ollie I have never had a dog that would show aggression under even the most stressful circumstances and thoroughly believed that any demonstration of aggressive behaviour was a failure on the part of the owner to train their dog properly.  Now I think I'm more measured - whilst I certainly believe this can have a role I also believe that temperament can be quite solidly built into a dog and there are times when management is the best you can do alongside slow steps training.  Sometimes I feel it is almost similar to how a parent must feel when they have child with a disability - you love them to bits but your dreams for the future have changed and you know you must work the best you can with the limitations you face.

Offline phoenix

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2017, 11:29:31 PM »
Hoover, I so agree with you about some dogs are born with a difficult temperament . Bob was like it from day one.  His problems with eye contact ,( in that he could stare out even a retired policeman, who prided himself on it as part of his job with delinquent adolescents!  ) were a concern. I'm sure he didn't know why he did it, or why he would guard. That's not how dogs think.  It was like aspergers,  and I knew it wasn't something emotional that could be cured. Like you say, it's a disability.   
I had heated arguments with people who said he was just badly trained.

I suggest avoiding trigger situations. The crate may be one trigger. There  is no retreat for the dog when trapped.  Your situation may just be part of the adolescent fear stage, but you need to provide a calm controlled set-up.    I didn't have young children with my cocker, we had a bombproof Labrador for them, so i didn't have to your difficulty now.  I hope things work out,  so keep baby gates up to separate them.    I had to keep OH from being silly!  Could have had a crate for him!  Spaniels are very highly strung compared to the terriers I now have,  yet one a feral stray, and the other neglected, but both rock solid great with people.    My  cocker was the best dog I've ever had, despite driving me to tears and near divorce!    Be very patient, especially with insisting on a code of  behaviour  from the humans. They are harder to train.   A trainer/ behaviourist will want to observe family life, then give a constructive plan. One who has worked with Cockers would be helpful. Our own Mark, TopBarks,  is an expert, based in Yorkshire. You can email him , mentioning Col, and ask for advice on what to do .   He adopted a cocker when  at the vets, that was in to be pts for biting, and is a wonderful dog now.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.

Offline Sumava Cockers

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2017, 07:43:47 PM »
Sounds like we've been lucky.

Our old girl Betty was totally calm,  to the extent that she rarely defended herself even if attacked by other dogs.

The new boy is more of a handful and has been very play-bitey to the extent of being painful,  but not in a true aggressive way.  He growls and makes some pretty blood-curdling noises,  but so far with no evil intent.  Over the last week or so he's very much more aware of the pressure of his bites,  with the result that I'm pretty much healed up now.

Barney had free range of the house,  and sleeps in our bedroom with us,  but on the floor,  not on the bed

Is your girl starting to calm down now,  or is the aggression continuing?
Sarka, Jon and Barnaby B

Offline Archie bean

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2017, 10:27:33 PM »
Hoover, I so agree with you about some dogs are born with a difficult temperament . Bob was like it from day one.  His problems with eye contact ,( in that he could stare out even a retired policeman, who prided himself on it as part of his job with delinquent adolescents!  ) were a concern. I'm sure he didn't know why he did it, or why he would guard. That's not how dogs think.  It was like aspergers,  and I knew it wasn't something emotional that could be cured. Like you say, it's a disability.   
I had heated arguments with people who said he was just badly trained.


That last sentence rings so true for me! It's hard to explain to people who have never dealt with a dog like this. Before Archie I admit I was less than sympathetic. I'd never had a problem previously so I too assumed it was down to training. I now know different. It can be so demoralising when you are struggling to deal with a difficult dog and people who have zero experience or knowledge basically tell you you must either have done something to cause it or are doing everything wrong to try to stop it.  >:(

To the OP I would say that I'm afraid don't think this is normal puppy behaviour, but possibly the start of guarding issues. I was in the same position when Archie was tiny. I won't add much to the excellent advice that has already been given. I definitely agree with seeking help from a behaviourist (positive reward based ONLY) in order to work out the triggers. Then you can set up a system of avoidance until you can build up a strong level of trust to prevent the issues in the first place and to diffuse them if they do occur. The good news is that it is possible to overcome this kind of issue. You can see some of my troubles with Archie on my earliest posts here - and how far we have come together.  :D

Offline bmthmark

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Re: My wife and I are really worried about Bella
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2017, 08:29:04 AM »
OP hope all is going ok?