Author Topic: Archie (the crazy wcs) Is It Worth Continuing Loose Lead Training @ 6mths????  (Read 2852 times)

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Offline shropshire-john

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My first post. Been reading this great forum for a quite a while.

Went into buying a wcs without enough research. After sharing our previous 13 years with a gorgeous working lab.

Thought she had tonnes of energy....how wrong.

Archie seems to have unlimited reserves and is wired at the drop of a hat.

Or as one of the assistants at puppy training classes described him as "being very busy".

Anyway he's actually great at nearly everything.

His recall is brilliant. Very sweet natured and gentle. Wants to be everybody's best friend.

Except loose lead walking is really bad. And we're not wanting crufts type heeling.

Just want a walk on the lanes without arms being pulled out the socket.

His attention span is about three steps then lunge forwards full pelt.

Been at training him most days. Stopping when lunging then luring him back to our side with a treat.

Two or three steps then lunge.

Tried the opposite direction thing walking away from the lunge diection.

Random changes in direction. Training him after an hours off lead exercise.

Tried a flat collar. He's a bit better, but tends to nearly strangle himself.

Got an anti pull harness but the connection to his front chest just seems to bend him to the right and seems cruel....

So just been using the loop connection on the back. Which turns it into a sledge pulling aid.

And still the two three step lunge.

Wondering if we should just give in and use the long lead till he's a bit older and has a bit more impulse control?

After 4mths it feels like it's just never going to click with him.

Or do we just keep on persevering on the shorter lead???? Sorry for the long post.

Offline bizzylizzy

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Hi and welcome! Don’t wish to demotivate you BUT, Four years on from you and I‘m STILL training loose lead walking. After failing the German Obedience Training certificate last year, ( which was VERY disciplined and for day to day employment totally impractical) I‘m now doing a different exam which tests behaviour in everyday situations. Humphrey‘ll be no problem on any of the tests BUT I‘m already having sleepless nights over the loose lead walking in the town! We‘ve trained and trained and trained and on the training ground he‘s fine, off lead to heel he‘s perfect but in a group of other people or somewhere where there‘s lots to sniff, I can forget it. The ONLY thing which is having  a glint of effect is standing still the minute the lead tightens and carrying on when he looks back at me and the lead has loosened somewhat. I have also been told that I talk too him to much - constantly telling him to „heel“ or „slow down“, I‘m working on that now but I think he was probably just „switching off“ to my constant nagging. The new trainer I have, who admittedly has no experience with cockers, suggested I give him a bit more lead, allow him to sniff a bit, try and relax myself and then carry on rather than trying to insist  that he walk next to me on a short lead. This has taken some of the strain off me although it hasn‘t stopped him darting from side to side and is no solution when walking on a busy pavement.
I can only implore you to persevere and be consistant, you have the advantage in that your dog is still young, I neglected to train lead walking enough when mine was younger, we live in the country so he‘s free most of the time and it was just easier but it was a mistake and although they’re learning a lifelong, the older they get the harder it is to undo bad habits.
Don‘t know what the best method is but would suggest you pick one (there‘ll be suggestions here no doubt)  stick to it ridgidly and keep at it’s . I doubt there are many cockers who walk absolutely perfectly, it doesn‘t appear to be in their nature but I‘m sure there are many that are better than mine!! Best of luck (and if you do happen to come up with a magic solution before the end of October, PLEASE let me know!!  ;))

Offline PaulJ

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Welcome John.

Heeling with a cocker takes some patience and time. They want to hunt...it’s what they are bred to do. I don’t think it matters what you use and if you change between harness, lead, slip etc you have to train pup to heel using that device.

We use a slip primarily but also a collar and lead and sometimes a non pull harness which is useful if we must get pup from A to B quickly and don’t want to think to much. We don’t want pup think pressure on lead means he goes the way he wants. The more interesting the environment the harder heeling is so choose familiar, boring places for heeling training.

This is how we have done it and it is a work in progress with good and bad days and trust some have been real bad.

Choose a side, left or right and always use that side for heeling. Walk with pup on lead, the moment there is tension in lead turn around and walk the other way without saying anything. When pup is in the right spot lots of yes, yes, yes,. If we treat, we treat from behind the leg and low so pup remains in correct position and does not jump up. Sometimes it means we don’t get very far as we ping pong left and right. I swear some people think we are mental when conducting heel training  :005: :005:

When in a more sterile environment such as back garden I practice walking grids. Turning inside corners and outside corners with pup off lead.

 Most importantly try to get pup’s focus with that eye contact we all want for training and relax...you will get there but it can be hard working with a pup that wants to hunt.

Dont give up..you can do it!

Offline bizzylizzy

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Just been googling and came across this article which includes a few very interesting points re rewarding behaviour which might be helpful ? Its given me a few things to think about.

https://www.thelabradorsite.com/how-to-stop-your-labrador-pulling-on-the-lead/

Offline PaulJ

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Also, look at pups character. If pup is head strong and driven, work on steadiness. If pup is steady and biddable the work on drive. Point I am making is balance the dog. Unless of course you want a certain type.

Here is a link OH suggested too

http://www.sportdogtrainingcenter.com/10-heeling-mistakes/

Offline shropshire-john

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Thanks so much for all your kind and informative advice.

I'll read the articles later.

Had an incident yesterday...... and now know why young wcs are kept on a long training lead when in a field.

Archie's always had great recall.

Yesterday I took him into a big enclosed field with longish grass that I've been letting him run around in.

He's been getting bolder and bolder scanning the way in front while we're walking.

Then he came across a pheasant. It took flight with a super excited Archie in chase.

Luckily it out flew him. But I couldn't see him at the other end of the field and he ignored my recall commands.

After a while he started coming back to me and sniffed out another one (I guess it's easy for him now he knows what they smell like)

Once again, a crazy chase around the field. I was amazed at his stamina and energy.

Eventually got him under control and took him home. It took him ages to calm down.

I can't blame him as it is just his instinct coming out. But, I really don't want him catching/killing a pheasant.

Should we just keep him on a long training line in future or just not go into fields where pheasants might be??

We don't want a hunter, just a good pet.

Offline bizzylizzy

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At the present time you probably need to do both  ;).
Avoiding fields is obviously the quickest and easiest short term solution but during the life of your spaniel you‘re going to be confronted with the same problem in  various disguises -, rabbits, deer, foxes, sea gulls, next door‘s cat, and, and and .......so its a good idea to think about training impulse control at some point. Even dogs with a solid recall will struggle once the adrenalin has kicked in and they‘re in chase, you need to be one step ahead and grab their attention before they get to that point. All these things take time however and your little one still has a lot of growing up to do yet but if you can, I would try to avoid the places where temptation lies, once they‘ve experienced the thrill of the chase, its a bit like a drug, they get hooked! I‘d stick with the long line for time being and possibly check out some good training classes aswell. Don’t worry, You‘ll get there!  ;)

Offline PaulJ

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I feel your anxiety.

Our pup is very driven, he wants to hunt but he should as that is the line he has come from. We are apprehensive about letting go off while still so young so we have to manage the situations when we do so. A great place to train in the wild are hedged  bridle ways and foot paths. So pup can only go forwards or back. In a big open field there are lots of options for pup to self reward.

If pup is too driven for you then work on steadiness, if you want him more hunty then work on drive. Sounds like you want a steady dog so focus on that for a while. When walking in a field try some steadiness training, wait and hold whilst adding distractions slowly also heeling practice if you can. Placeboards might help to focus pup too.

I don’t know the right answer, these are just things we have tried to steady up our pup. The gundog trainer we have teamed up with does not want anymore drive. Retrieves in the wild are banned  :005:

You will get there. Patience and consistency will prevail.

Just one thing with recalls and just double checking as you used the word “commands”. Golden rule is don’t repeat a recall. If pup gets two he will learn to not come back on the first recall, then it will be three, four, five etc. Yes, it is hard when he is zooming off over the horizon.

Offline Gerryjane

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I second all the above particularly use of the long line. We have a very lightweight one and Toby hardly knows he’s wearing it. I know they can be a pain and get tangled but it is worth the effort. Just be careful around the safety aspects for yourself,  particularly as pup gets stronger. Long lines can do damage to your hands and with a stronger dog I would wear a glove in case you have picked up and he runs .... burned palms hurt😱 with a retriever I landed on my face when he took me by surprise  >:(
Golden rule for recall ..... don’t call the dogs bum ..... ie make sure he is likely to return before you recall him  :lol2:

Offline bizzylizzy

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[quote
Golden rule for recall ..... don’t call the dogs bum ..... ie make sure he is likely to return before you recall him  :lol2:
[/quote]

 :lol2: beautifully put! A good tip is the sticker on here by Top Barks on training the recall.

Offline Statler

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Re: Archie (the crazy wcs) Is It Worth Continuing Loose Lead Training @ 6mths????
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2019, 03:32:27 PM »
seams like you have tried every method known to man and i do sympathise. The one thing you have not done is actually let the dog work out for itself to take the pressure off the lead. whilst i do not agree with everything he does i think you will find some thought provoking stuff from chris upton on youtube, none involve yank and crank but actually just letting the dog figure things out on a longer lead and praise when lead is loose. Sounds too simple but it does work

edited to add 1 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19Tc9c9pHM

Offline Gerryjane

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Re: Archie (the crazy wcs) Is It Worth Continuing Loose Lead Training @ 6mths????
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2019, 11:03:01 PM »
Useful comment from Statier :D Steve Mann also has a good video .... I started his technique in the house and then in the garden before even trying outside with distractions. I can’t access the link but it will probably pop up on Google  >: ;)