Hi still having a problem

[Worthy]

  I posted a couple of weeks ago RE: Kasper keep growling at my son 8, anyway he is still doing it from time to time and has even growled at my older son 15. Last time most of those who offered advise thought that maybee it was the way my son approached but i truly don't believe his is doing anything other than trying to stroke him. I don't know what to do as I have already been told not to shout as it is a response to something, however i am sure you will agree i can't just let him get away with it and ignore the fact. My son is now reluctant to go near him as he snapped at him tonight (unprovoked), can anyone offer me some advise because i don't have a clue where to start and i don't want to tell him that he can't approach Kasper.

[Cob-Web]

I remember your concern - I think you were advised to allow your puppy to approach your children, rather than the other way around?  It helps at first if the child sits on the floor, with you nearby, and if Kasper approaches, the don't try to stroke or grab at first - you reward Kasper when he approaches nicely and sniffs or behaves nicely around your son 

Rather than consider it behaviour you can't let Kasper "get away" with, remember that he is expressing his anxiety to you about a situation -he is clearly saying "I'm not comfortable in this situation" and that is something that should never be discouraged in a dog imo 

[Worthy]

I appreciate that he needs to be able to warn us when he is uncomfortable and I would not want to discourage him from doing this, I have always been really carefull about ensuring that the children treat him appropriately and I am not aware of any incident to provoke anxiety (he is fine with my younger two). As I said last time this is not my first dog (have had Boxers in the past and never had a problem). Therefore he is not a novelty with the children and that is why i have referred to it as "getting away with" as i truly can't understand why he is doing it and if it is anxiety and not a pecking order thing what can I do if I don't have a clue why it has started at 8 months

[Cob-Web]

The idea that pet dogs have a "pack mentality" that includes humans has been discredited, and is no longer considered relevant by modern dog trainers    Cockers are very vocal dogs, which may be why you are finding Kasper different from your boxers   

Their "teenage" phase is also well documented on these pages - they will "explore the envelope of good behaviour" (thank you for that wonderful term, Julian) and push the boundaries you set to see how flexible they are 

The important thing is to keep your child safe and prevent Kasper's behaviour being reinforced - so I really do think that no matter how your children behave around him, or how dog savvy they are from owning boxers, then you need to closely supervise the contact between Kasper and your children, and ensure that they don't make him uncomfortable in any way; even if that means not reaching out for him, and allowing him to initiate contact.

Longer term, it is always useful if all members of the family train, handle and care for the dogs - so that they respond equally to everyone - but Kasper will not be able to focus on training if he is anxious or stressed 

[Aearoniel]

  Last time most of those who offered advise thought that maybee it was the way my son approached but i truly don't believe his is doing anything other than trying to stroke him.

This could be the reason, if your son was trying to stroke him and Kasper didn't want him to.

Callie is very good with children and while she has never growled we ensure that any child (or adult for that matter) who wants to stroke her or approach in any way do so by allowing her to come to them, even family have to stick to this rule, and as she is so friendly at the moment you can't not stroke her lol but it is her choice to do so with no pressure on her at all.

If Kasper is snapping at the children obviously you need something to do about it, perhaps contact a behaviourist who can give advice in your home or what I would do would be to tell all of the children (and adults to ensure consistancy, obviously for walking etc you will need to touch him) that they are not to approach Kasper in any way, even if he walks past and they can reach out and touch him they mustn't. If Kasper wants to initiate contact he will and in those cases once he is touching them they can pet him. This will take the risk away and remove the pressure from Kasper, some dogs don't like being stroked or fussed and the level of "over fussing" is different for each dog so this method will allow Kasper to say how much is enough and if he is a dog that likes fuss he will initiate contact
HTH

[Jan/Billy]

It may well be that he just doesn't like being stroked &  you may never overcome this   People always presume that dogs enjoy being approached and stroked but this isn't always the case for some dogs, my own dog being one of them. I never ever stroke Billy willy nilly, I always call him over to me to be stroked, I never invade "his space" uninvited.

Dogs often do things " unprovoked" , when in actual fact it's often  not unprovoked it's just that we haven't established the reason for their behaviour.

Was Kasper from a breeder?

[ludo]

Bit long I'm afraid  Rachael I am interested in what you have said about the hierarchy theory which includes people being discredited  I bought a copy of the dog listener before I joined this forum which seems to be based on this theory although having said that I am not keen on some of the ideas  a number of TV programmes (particularly American) seem to focus on this theory as well  though I can't see how people can act in the same way at the same speed and with the same subtlety as dogs to dogs - we just don't speak the same language  Seems to me its rather like two people who don't speak the same language trying to learn to communicate with one another  so I much prefer the logic of rewarding positive behaviour and trying to distract from undesirable behaviour  though I think puppies need to learn 'no' and other control commands for those occasions where disaster might strike (such as grabbing hold of an electric wire or chasing the cats)  Can you post when the theory was discredited and who by - I find the whole area of how dogs learn fascinating - I am also enjoying Culture Clash 

[ludo]

Worthy - has your dog got a medical problem which makes it uncomfortable to be handled  - just wondered as it sounds like this started all of a sudden - it might be an idea to ask your vet for some advice? I am too much of a novice to give advice but sympathise - I would feel concerned as well if I had young children  Good luck.   

[Cob-Web]

Can you post when the theory was discredited and who by - I find the whole area of how dogs learn fascinating - I am also enjoying Culture Clash 

Jean Donalldson explains in her book why the theory is flawed in her book - there was also a link to an article in an old post; I'll see if I can find it 

Ah-ha - it's another book in the recommended list at the top of the behaviour board: Barry Eaton - Dominance, Fact Or Fiction

[ludo]

Thanks - I'll get back to the book and check it out.   

[Jan/Billy]

One or two articles here

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2007/Debunking%20Dom%20Myth%201-05.doc

[ludo]

Thanks - excellent 

[Cazzie]

Im sorry your still having problems  , I hope you get them sorted soon    Im sure you will 

[SarahS]

Im sorry your still having problems  , I hope you get them sorted soon    Im sure you will 

I can't remember how old your puppy is.  Ours flies at our children (13 and10) every now and then. It is like he has a rush of blood to the head.  I think with all training and theories there are those for and against the Dog Listener ideas. I do think that some of the hierachy theory makes sense. My last dog was an angel and we followed principles like eating first, through doors first etc etc, ignoring him when coming in to house.  But there are other parts I do not think should be done, like using force etc. We are not dogs, but humans after all. But some of that theory from the Dog Listener worked for us, I just think you have to be sensible. Follow your own instincts.  I have lots of books and they all say different things, so it is a question of what you think makes sense for your dog.  It is hard to define who knows best.  They are a bouncy breed and probably different from how your boxer was.

When my dog flies at the children like this, I stand in front of the child (between dog and them) and say wrong in a strong forceful voice.  We all then ignore him totally and if it he doesnt get the message, I remove him from the situation.  At the moment I cannot leave my 10 year old unattended with the puppy because neither can be 100% trusted to behave in the right way without a little guidance.  I have to be around to coach really.  I am not worried about this behaviour, in fact I am expecting it to get worse before it gets better.  He is learning it is unacceptable,  but just occasionally has a scatty moment.  If you are really concerned, why not ask your vet to recommend a qualified handler.

[spanielcrazy]

I don't have a clue why it has started at 8 months

There's part of the puzzle right there. He is in canine adolescence and is flexing some "teenage" muscle. Since there are children involved, I really suggest that you seek out a qualified behaviourist if you can.

The snapping might have been unprovoked in your view, but in his (the dog) view something did happen to provoke, and without knowing what the details are surrounding these incidents, no one can really comment on it. A behaviourist could observe you and your family at home with the dog, and possibly witness such an incident, and make recommendations.

If that is not possible, I would get him in a good training class with a knowledgable trainer who can make recommendations on how to use the excercises learned in class in these situations at home.

Also google NILIF, a training method based on Nothing In Life Is Free, where the dog has requirements to meet before he can do or have what he wants, such as doing a sit or down before being fed or going out the door. It doesn't even have to be something so "stern", you could have him fetch a ball or roll over or do a trick; the point being that the terms are set by humans not him.

I really do feel that when you have a potential biting situation and feel unequipped to cope that you seek out a behaviourist or trainer. Even small steps such as an obedience class will help get the situation in hand.