CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Health => Topic started by: Dunton4 on December 18, 2009, 05:11:06 PM
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Poor Tilly :'( She has been on anti-biotics for at least 3 weeks for infected lip-folds with no improvement. My vet has just 'phoned me with the results of the swab analysis and Tilly has a range of bacteria present, including pseudomonas which is resistant to the two types of anti-biotics she has previously been prescribed. No wonder they were having no impact ::). She is now on baytril which the vet says is the only anti-biotic they have to treat pseudomonas. She has to go back for a check-up on Christmas Eve. Has anyone any experience of pseudomonas infection? I understand this particular bacteria is hard to get rid of so I don't know how long Tilly will be suffering for and I really hope the baytril sorts it out. Poor Tilly. Definitely looks like the face-lift option for her once we have the infection sorted out. Oh well, New Year, new face eh Tills :luv:
Sue and Tilly aka smelly chops
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Poor Tilly and poor you having to put up with the anxiety (not to mention the smell) :P. No experience of pseudomonas here, but on the positive side, at least the culprit has been identified so fingers crossed the new antibiotics will be effective.
My first Cocker, Josh, had an ongoing problem with lip fold infections on one side of his mouth. It would improve a bit but then flare up again. He eventually had a nip and tuck on that side, which he recovered from very quickly, and it sorted out the problem for good. I'm sure it will do the same for Tilly if that's what she ends up having done.
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Sorry to hear that poor Tilly is suffering (and your noses too), have you tried wiping the area with colloidal silver? I used it when Meg had an ear infection where pseudomonas was present and it certainly seemed to help.
http://www.caninenaturalcures.co.uk/silver.htm
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Thanks Elaine - Tilly's is on one side, but I am wondering whether to have the other side "nip and tucked" as well to avoid a problem. I'm sure my vet will advise me if that's necessary. On the one hand I have put off having this done because I don't want to put Tilly through the op, but on the other hand, this is a horrible experience for her and she is clearly in pain (she cries when I wipe her mouth and it bleeds :'()
Thanks for that link, Michele. That stuff looks really interesting - I will give it a try. I wonder whether it might do the trick for my Dad's eczema too :005: I don't like him having to use steroid cream all the time. I could get it for both of them.
Sue and Tilly (who still gets her cuddles, despite the whiff it's stil worth it :luv:)
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This is what Paisley has. He had it in his ears resulting in ear canal removal.
He also has it in his lipfolds. His is also antibiotic resistant.
He has had many months of Baytril. didn't work. Colloidal silver didn't work either for him.
The specialist gave us Flamazine cream. [Silver Sulfadiazine] It's very good it contains Silver.
Pseudomonas is very hard to get rid of and it smells terrible too.
If the Baytril doesn't work, ask about the Flamazine it is a human product. My vet got it for me.
Paisley may well go on to have the op as I have great difficulty getting the cream on him now.
But it does work.
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My Georgia had the face lift op a few years ago and has had no problems since - she's approaching her 9th Birthday now :D
Definitely the best decision I ever made as just a trip to the vets is traumatic for her.
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Thanks for the suggestions of things to try. I spoke to the vet about them today, but although she said they might well help, she said that as Tilly's dermatitis in near her mouth, she couldn't advise we try colloidal silver or flamazine owing to the risk of ingestion. Apparently both contain a metal (silver!), which is toxic when ingested. So we are continuing with the Baytril for now. Is it my imagination, or is Tilly slightly less smelly at the moment? Hope so, poor little girl, she has had this for long enough now. Thanks for the report on the face lift Louise. We'll definitely try that once we have the infection under control.
Sue and Tilly
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I have had Honey for since August 2009 she is a Many Tears dog, she has a lip-fold problem she was on Baydril then had a operation, which I don't feel was done correctly so the poor dog has been on Baydril and other Antibiotics and we has use creams, we have now change vets she on more Antibiotic's and we went back Christams Eve, more medication which I am not happy about, she goes back in the New year she has the same infection that your dog has her mouth is raw, I am so cross that the dog is still suffering, so it looks like more surgery, we are now four months with this problem, this poor dog has had lots of problem and lots of surgery. We would love to adopt another dog but although we have Honey insured her pre existing problems are ruled out, lig-fold ear infections, growths on her body, and eye problems, but this dog is such a sweet heartand an infected paw, we have so far spent thousands but it all been well worth it, we love her so much. :luv: good luck with your little Angel and I will update you on Honey's progress.
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Poor Tilly has to go in to the vet's to have her lips cleaned and shaved under sedation on Thursday :'(. The vet is concerned that the Baytril doesn't seem to be working. She says we'll have one more go of clearing up the infection, otherwise Tilly will have to have the op with the infection present, which really worries me. Poor Tilly is getting very defensive of her mouth and I can't say I blame her really.
How is Honey doing?
Sue and Tilly (stinky and sore ph34r)
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Honey still has a big problem with her mouth we are still on the Antibiotics, she had her mouth clipped and cleaned the last time we were at the vets, we are due to go back, so see what happens but she is going to need more surgery, why could they not get it right the first time she had surgery, it makes my blood boil, I have change vet and he is very good, poor Honey is so good about having her mouth cleaned but it is so painful for her, we are so lucky to have such a wonderful little girl, she also has problems with her eye so will need to have some surgery on them as well. Good lucky to Tilly big kiss from Honey to Tilly x :luv:
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Bailey has a lip fold infection at the moment she is on antibiotics and steriod cream. we also bath her chops with HiBi scrub and dry afterwards it still looking sore though she been on Meds since Saturday.
hope all goes well for Tilly on Thursday will be thinking of her :luv:
Jo
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Paisley was on Baytril for 8 months for his ear and lipfold infection. They did not work. Had the op for his ear but still had problems with his mouth. My vet wanted to give him more Baytril. I refused. It just wasn't working.
She said there was another AB Called Marbocyl which is similar to Baytril. I said I would try that. He was on it for 40 days and this has made a difference. I also took him off Kibble [AG] and have put all my dogs back on Raw [Natures Instinct] So far his mouth seems to be OK. No smell and not sore looking. Not using anything on his mouth at the moment and so far so good. I did manage to get some of the flamazine cream on him on occasions. [He is not very compliant] I think Paisleys problems are due to Allergies. It's a wait and see game for me but so far so good.
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Thank you for your kind thoughts for Tilly. She went in today for her clean-up and the vet says it's really bad on her left-hand side :'( Tilly is very subdued after the experience, but has enjoyed her special meal of boiled chicken this evening :luv:
Thank you for your thoughts on the alternative AB, Julie. I will definitely ask my vet about Marbocyl. Interestingly Tilly is on AG too - I will discuss changing her diet with the vet too. I have to try to put the Baytril on her lip in liquid form using a cotton bud :o I am not at all optimistic that Tilly will let me do this, but will try anything. The vet has taken a further swab for more tests to see if there are any further bacteria there in addition to the pseudomonas. Happy Days ::)
After our holiday last week I now know a lot more specialist vocabulary in French - lip-folds, dermatitis, Baytril (in french this is "Baytrrrrril"! :005:) I hope I won't need to use it when we next visit.
Sue and Tilly (a little more fragrant tonight :luv:)
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Just a quick update to say that Tilly has now been prescribed Marbocyl for her resistant lip-fold infection. Fingers crossed!
Sue and Tilly
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Hi fingers crossed that the problem clears up, we go back with Honey on Saturday for a check up, Honey is no better we clean her mouth twice a day which she does not like its red and painful, she been on Antibiotics since August, so I think it time to look at surgery, she had surgery done three months ago, but my new vet said it was not done right which makes me cross, not for me but for poor Honey. Will update at the weekend. ;)
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Look forward to your updates. Hope all goes well for you both.
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Hope it does the trick x
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Jade had hers operated on last year and she has not looked back since. I hadn't realised how much it was affecting her quality of life, she must have been so uncomfortable as she has become a different dog. Best decision I ever made was getting them done. :D
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Good luck.
Boysie ended up having the op which helped a lot (though the op wasn't done as well as it could have been). We found a small drop of apple cider vinegar in his water helped with further 'outbreaks', and when we eliminated chicken from his diet it stopped this and several other recurrent problems completely.
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Thank you everyone for your positive wishes and also for sharing your experiences. After three days on the new anti-biotic Tilly's lips have stopped smelling almost completely! :D :D After months of soreness and the terrible smell, it is lovely to see her becoming more relaxed. She's back to the vets on Wednesday for a check-up and I will discuss the op then. I do think it seems to be the only long-term solution.
Interesting poins about the chicken and the cider vinegar, Maria - might well be worth a try.
Poor little Honey, I hope her trip to the vets went well today? Tilly sends lots and lots of sympathy :luv:
Sue and Tilly
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Pleased to hear she is feeling more comfortable, I had 18 months of this with Jade on and off antibiotics until the vet said it will not get better and needs operating on, I was reluctant as I thought it would cost a fortune but it was only £130 if I remember right and I was worried about putting her through an unneccesary operation, but it was worth every penny and the worry of it to see her now. I do realise we may not have been so lucky and the vets did say that it doesn't always clear it completely, but they did such a good job she has no fold there at all now. :D Good luck if ou decide to get Tilly's done. :D
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Sad to say Paisley's mouth has broken out again. He's back on the Marbocyl. Think the Op will be the only solution for him.
I can't get anywhere near to clean him. Think Paisley has been on Abs since he came into rescue and the 8 months or so we have had him.
Poor little Ellie seems to have got it too. She is on Marbocyl too and we are awaiting swab results. I hope hers isn't Pseudomonas.
She will let me clean her, using Hibiscrub twice a day and she is looking much better. But paisley will rub his mouth on anything, the sofas coffee table even the toilet rim, leaving behind a mucky brown discharge.
They also have some metacam for the pain. Poor doggies.
But I won't give up on him, we have come so far only to be knocked back.
I would get the op done on him tomorrow, but need to find out if it will be the end to his problems or is it just going to erupt elsewhere.
I put some cider vinegar in their meat this morning. I have heard it is very good. Also read that diluted white vinegar breaks down Pseudomonas but would imagine that would really sting a sore mouth. Aaaargh.
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Monty has suffered with this and anti biotics didn't help so I decided to mix savlon cream with thornits powder and make a paste and apply to the lip fold at night and it has all but dissapeared.
I love thornits it seems to be a miracle in a bottle!
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Hi everyone, we returned to vets yesterday, and it has been decided to operate on Honey lip folds operation number two, I have change my vet so the operation will be done in a totally different way, the first operation her lip fold were pinned back which has caused more problems this time they will take a wedge out. She also has a problem with dry eye and eye lashes rubbing on her eyes so we were put on some Optimmune six weeks ago she needs to stay on it for life, the cost of Optimmune from the vets is £39 95 so have looked on line and found it from a UK based company for £23 but then the vet wants £11 for prescription, but then the Nurse on the desk said I could come to a deal with the vet if I had a chat to him. But I must point out that you can get medication without a prescription from company's on line although they say they are UK base the medication come from South Africa and you are importing them which is against the law, so you have to be very careful. But at the end of the day I just want my special little girl to have a good quality of life. So all booked in for the 22nd January. Wil let you all know how it goes. ;)
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Hope everything goes well and Honey's problems are soon all over.
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The Marbocyl is marvellous! Tilly's mouthis now clean and clear and the vet has told me to stop bathing it :D. Tilly is booked in for her facelift on Tuesday. She told me that Tilly had four different types of bacterial infection - (excuse the spelling ::)) streptococcus, e-coli, pseudomonas and aerobic pseudomonas (which is apparently the worst kind) The vet said that if the Marbocyl hadn't worked, the only thing left would be an anti-biotic that is applied topically and which is normally used for cow's udders :o :o
The things you learn about when you have a cocker :005:
Sue and Tilly
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Fantastic, so glad the Marbocyl worked for you.
Paisley was on it for 40 days and is now on it again. Been on it a week so far but he is still smelly.
still waiting the results of Ellies swab, she is looking a little better.
glad yours has cleared up and the op can go ahead, it does worry me, him having the op with infection present.
Hopefully your problems will soon be over.
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Really pleased the marbocyl has worked for Tilly, it will be a relief when she is all done and dusted. My vet cut a wedge out and stitched back together and there is no fold there at all now, it is wonderful.
Jade had the infection really bad when she was operated on and had no problems, they gave her an antibiotic injection and of course antibiotics to take home and she did not need the lampshade either, as I think it must have been so sore that she didn't touch it!! :'( within 2 days of having the operation though she was more playful than she had been in over 18 months. :D
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within 2 days of having the operation though she was more playful than she had been in over 18 months. :D
We found Buddy was a new dog after his facelift too. We hadn't noticed the decline, but the recovery was very noticeable.
I am so glad we did it, it was the only solution for him.
All the very best for the forthcoming face lifts. If you are worried, I posted a thread on here about Buddy's recovery, with some photos. Do a quick search if you like.
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All the very best for the forthcoming face lifts. If you are worried, I posted a thread on here about Buddy's recovery, with some photos. Do a quick search if you like.
I found the thread Annette started invaluable when I was deciding whether to have Jades done or not. ;)
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All the very best for the forthcoming face lifts. If you are worried, I posted a thread on here about Buddy's recovery, with some photos. Do a quick search if you like.
I found the thread Annette started invaluable when I was deciding whether to have Jades done or not. ;)
Yes, thank you so much Annette, I have previously looked at your thread, which was very helpful. Thanks to your thread, I won't be too shocked to see the extent of Tilly's stitches on Tuesday! I think if I hadn't seen your photos I would have been quite shocked and upset, so thanks for preparing me! I'm also thankful to hear how successful this op has been for most of your cockers. I can't say I'm looking forward to Tuesday, but it will be good to get this sorted out for her once and for all. She's already a more relaxed dog now that her mouth isn't so sore, so I know we have to do it for her sake :luv:
I have found all your suggestions for treatment so helpful - thank you everyone :-* I hope our collective experiences might prove helpful for anyone whose cocker is suffering from this horrible and painful condition.
Sue and Tilly (currently upside down asleep on her favourite chair :luv:)
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Hope all goes well for Tilly on Tuesday. Dallas had his done years ago (with infection present as nothing was shifting it) by the most amazing locum vet we had EVER! When I nipped up to the kennel room to see him, I thought he was still waiting to be done! Every dog I'd seen after that op had lots of stitches and Dallas only had 2 tiny ones either side that you had to look really close to see :lol2: He was on antibugs afterwards but he never had any problems afterwards at all.
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Hi everyone I am like a cat on a hot tinned roof have phone the vets to see how Honey lip fold op has gone and they have had a problem bring her around, so I have to phone in 1 1/2 hours its now 4 15 and she has been got since 8 o clock this morning, I have already phoned twice today, I miss her so much, this is the second lip fold op she had, the poor little soul has been through the mill. She loves to sit on my husbands lap at night so hope she is well enough to come home.
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Hope she is OK and gets home tonight.
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Crikey paulette, I'd missed that Honey was going in for her op today. I do hope she's back with you soon and having that cuddle on your OH's lap. It's awful when they're away isn't it? The house seems so quiet and empty :'( Let's keep everything crossed that this time the op is successful, Honey has been through the mill, hasn't she? Sending her gently squigges :luv: :luv:
Let us know how she's getting on.
Sue and Tilly
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Paulette - everything crossed that Honey is ok :luv: :luv: :luv:
will be thinking of you and Tilly on Tuesday Sue :luv: :bigarmhug:
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Hi everyone Honey arrived back at 7 45 she has been very sick and has the runs, I have given her a little wash and she is fast a sleep, they put a bonnet on her which I took off as she does not scratch it just makes her stressed, she has to go back on Tuesday for a check up. My sister has been staying with me from Yorkshire, I took her to Benenden Hospital where I use to work, she has been ill for a long time and has cancer, so dear little Honey has been great therapy for my sister this week, and she gave me half the money towards Honey's operation which was wonderful. Thank you for all your kind words they means a lot to myself and Honey. I just love this little girl so much :luv:
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I was just posting to say I hope she is back with you so great to hear she is. I am sure she will be feeling much better tomorrow. How lovely of your sister. :luv:
Get well soon Honey. :luv:
Good luck to Tilly for Tuesday Sue, will be thinking of you both. :luv:
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Just catching up with this one - hope she is feeling a bit brighter today :luv:
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Hi everyone Honey is still not moving very much and not eating we carried her outside and have given her painkiller and antibiotics, we have cleaned her mouth and she is gone back to sleep, I have got some good medication that makes them eat which I will give her if she not eating in the next 24 hrs it was was given to me by the Royal Vets Hospital for my cat and works wonders when they are not eating and its very safe to give. Thanking you for all your kind words.
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Aaw, poor Honey. Would she maybe eat a little bit of chicken and rice, this was what I was advised to give jade for the first couple of days as her mouth was very sore, I chopped it up really fine so she didn't have to chew and put it into a nice wide flatish bowl, so that she didn't bump her mouth trying to get it into her chow bella bowl. Hope she is feeling better soon. :-* :-* Sending her gentle hugs from me and my girls.
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We hope Honey is feeling a little better today. Poor wee girl :luv: We're sending positive vibes to Honey from Leicestershire to help her get well soon :-*
Sue and Tilly
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We hope Honey is feeling a little brighter today. How is she doing paulette?
Sue and Tilly
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Honey is now feeling a little better today is Monday, we had a very bad weekend she had not eaten since Thursday I always give chicken and rice but she would not touch it and never moved off her bed, we gave her painkillers and antibiotics, and I have been syringing water into her mouth, Sunday night at about 11.45pm she had her first mouthful of food ;) I was so pleased and this morning the tail was wagging and that was wonderful. She had a infection around her mouth when she went in for her operation but that has gone and the smell has gone as well she has about 17 stitches on one side and 15 on the other, as this is the second time she has had it done it looks totally different and look a lot better, the first operation £875 and the second £450 but done by a different vet, this little girl has never complained once what a brave girl she is. I never want her to have anymore surgery again, I have felt sick to the pit of my stomach and I have an abscess on my tooth but I don't want to leave on her own just yet. We go back to the vets for check up tomorrow. Thank you once again for all your kind words. :luv:
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We hope Honey is continuing to improve :luv:
Tilly is back from her op. The vet was pleased to see her go as Tilly has been "very vocal" since she woke up :005:
She has a very large bucket on her head and is feeling very sorry for herself. Mind you, she has just eaten a small bowl of chicken and rice and is asking for more (she can have some more later) I haven't had a chance to look at the work she's had done as I don't want to disturb her whilst she's so sore. We're off for a cuddle on the sofa now :luv:
Sue and Tilly
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Pleased to hear that Tilly is back home, here's hoping there's no looking back for her now. :luv:
Florence sends her cousin a :-*
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Really pleased to hear that Honey and Tilly are doing well. :D :D
OMG £875 and £450 :o :o :o My vet charged me £130 and apologised profusely as he had only quoted me £120, but it had taken longer than they had expected. I didn't bother putting it through the insurance as the excess was £100 so hardly seemed worth it. ::) I can't believe how vet charges differ around the country. :-\
Hope your girls continue to recover well. :luv:
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gentle squidge for little Tilly - glad she's home and it's all over and done with :luv: :luv:
Hope Holly is ok Paulette :luv:
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Today we went back to the vets of course I have shares as I have spent so much money with him, :005: Honey is feeling great today and back eating, the vet told me he had to take a large area away and she lost a lot of blood that why she was so week and just slept, I don't like the bucket hats they put on them, so I am going to buy a soft comfy collar to keep in for emergency. I wish Tilly a good recovery let me know how you are all doing, big hug to you both. I am thinking of getting a pal for honey well more than thinking I have been looking on Many Tears they have some very nice dogs :luv:, we have saved money by bathing grooming and trimming Honey ourselves, which will pay for insurance for a second dog, we have a grooming table, scissors, and a blaster for drying her off, it took my husband three hours but she look fab.
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So glad your girls are doing well.
Ellie's results came back and she has Ab resistant Pseudomonas in her lip folds too :'( The same as Paisley has.
We have had a bit of a nightmare here last week. My vet told me I had to separate all my dogs :o
Put Monty, Sasha and Louie into kennels and separate Paisley and Ellie. For as long as it took to clear the infection. This would have meant Paisley having to go back to the Rescue :'( She said we could try the stuff for cows udders but it could make them go deaf and cause kidney failure :o and I would have treat all 5 dogs with it. [I said no thanks] Ellie is allergic to penicillin, so it was no good for her anyway. They said they wouldn't operate with infection present. To give her her due she did contact vet schools looking for an answer. This went on all day with me getting more stressed by the minute. Then she spoke to the specialist who did Paisleys ear op. Sense at last.
They told her we didn't have to separate all the dogs and to use Topically TRIZEDTA with Baytril added. Although they are AB resistant this together might work as the Trizedta breaks down the pseudomonas allowing the Ab to work. She also told them they can operate with infection present as they did with Paisley and his ear was full of pseudomonas and he healed well. They are both on steroids too which my vet didn't want to give them. I can understand why but sometimes you have no choice. I have noticed an improvement in Ellie and Paisley too I think. At least I'm managing to get it on him without to much fuss so he can't be feeling as sore. He doesn't smell as bad either so hopefully this is working and he will be able to have the op sooner rather than later.
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Oh Julie! Poor you and poor dogs :'( :'( I'm so sorry you have had such a stressful day and pleased that there seems some light at the end of the tunnel.
Poor Tilly is whimpering all the time, but then, she is a total drama queen. I'm going to sleep downstairs with her, although I don't think I'll get much sleep!
She has eaten another small bowl of chicken and rice, so I am pleased about that and she's drunk the cooled water that the chicken was cooked in.
I'm also shocked by your vet's prices paulette!! Tilly's op was £295, although I have spent another £450 + on anti-biotics, swabs, clean-ups under GA etc etc since last May when the whole sorry sage started. I think we'll all move to AnnieM's vet!
Thank you for your good wishes everyone. I've told Tilly about them and she wagged her tail :luv:
Sue and Tilly
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I hope you have a good night with Tilly, I cannot believe you only paid £295, I have spent over £3000 since I got Honey 25th September 2009, the Baytril was £49 a course and she had three courses, I cannot claim for any of it as it is pre ex sisting, but she looks great and she is so happy and thats what counts at the end of the day, when they have been breeding dogs they have been treated so bad with poor diet and giving birth to lots of pups, and no vet care.
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Glad to hear Tilly is home & tucking into her chicken. Hope you both managed to get some sleep.
Gentle kisses from Max & Harry :-*
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I hope you have a good night with Tilly, I cannot believe you only paid £295, I have spent over £3000 since I got Honey 25th September 2009, the Baytril was £49 a course and she had three courses, I cannot claim for any of it as it is pre ex sisting, but she looks great and she is so happy and thats what counts at the end of the day, when they have been breeding dogs they have been treated so bad with poor diet and giving birth to lots of pups, and no vet care.
Honey is so lucky to have ended up with such a caring owner as you , paulette, :luv: although not lucky to have been treated so badly as a breeding bitch >:D As you say, it's worth it to see her happy :luv:
I am paying £1.55 per tablet for Baytril (that's inclusive of VAT) A 7 day course costs me £10.90. Online at Petdispensary they are charging £0.45 per tablet. How can your vet charge so much :o :o ?
Both Tilly and I got some sleep last night, in between crying and whimpering (both from Tilly, not me, although I feel like crying when I hear her :'()
She is not a brave little soldier ::) She has eaten well again this morning and I've sneaked a look at her stitches - the vet seems to have done quite a neat job, so far as I can tell amongst all the swelling. I've just popped Tilly on her favourite chair in the study and she's gone to sleep, bless her, I think that's the best thing for her at the moment - well, that and the chicken and rice!
Thank you Max and Harry for the gentle kisses. I wonder if Tilly remembers spending the night with Max?!
Sue and Tilly
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I am so glad you had a good night and Tilly is doing well, I did not take Honey out for her walk for a few days but she is fine now, she is laid here snoring, I cannot wait to get stitches out and get back to normality. Have a good day Sue & Tilly, Honey is thinking of you :luv:
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Oh no! Tilly's lips are infected again. I could cry :'( :'( Poor girl. She's off to the vets again in the morning. What is going on? She had healed up nicely after the operation, but I feel we're now back to square one. Poor Tilly :'(
Sue and Tilly
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Oh no, poor Tilly. Really hoping the Vet can give her something that will clear the infection quickly.
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Poor Tilly.
I hope you manage to get her sorted out quickly :-* :-*
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Thank you both. The vet says there's infection around the dissolvable stitches, which haven't quite dissoved yet. She reckons Tilly must cary the bacteria and when the conditions are right it will take a hold. She has given Tills some anti-biotics and some Metacam for pain relief. What a saga! Poor Tilly, but she is right as rain in herself :luv:
Sue and Tilly
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Oh Sue!!!! I am so sorry, :'( poor Tilly, I really hope she is feeling better soon and that once the stitches have gone completely she will have no more problems. Jade sends sympathetic hugs. :-*:luv: :-*:luv:
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Oh I am so sorry. I hope that you can clear this up completely to allow full healing and that that will then be the end of it.
Just sometimes, they don't take quite enough the first time and have to have another go. I really hope poor Tilly isn't that unlucky.
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Oh no, poor Tilly :(
Gentle kisses from us all :luv: