CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: ginnygirl on January 22, 2011, 01:07:17 PM
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Hi all just wondered if someone can give some advice about trainers and what to look for.
I'd like to try some training with Bella. I dont want to go hunting for live things but thought some training would be good for her. She has started taking a big interest in birds when we are out. She is 9 months and previously showed no interest at all. Her recall has taken a dip so I am keeping her on an extended lead when near the ducks on our walks. She has taken to running off in undergrowth and only returns when she feels like it if she has the scent of something. last week she returned with feathers and bits of bird stuck in her lips; not sure if she caught it or found it or what type of bird it was, hence the extended lead. I am going to try to improve her recall with a whistle ( I have read a thread by mark from top barks). Also she 'yaps' and whines at birds in trees and bushes and it is pretty much impossible to get her to come to me when she is doing this. I suppose I wonder will her recall and the fact that she is noisy when she finds birds hinder her being accepted on a training course, also I no absolutely nothing about working with dogs on hunts or beating and what it actually entails. Where do I start? I'm interested in anything that will be good for channeling her natural behaviour. Just to add when I'm out I call her back to me regurlarly and treat her before letting her go again so that she understands that recall is not the end of her fun. Think I am going to experiment with what I treat her with so that she is enthusiastic about her reward as she is turning her nose up with our usual treats. Hope I havent waffled too much here.
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You could try looking for a Gundog training course near you. They usually start after the shooting season has ended.
If your dog only yips on live game you should be O.K as only dummies are used at training classes.
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Might help to take a look here:
http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/ (http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/)
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feel for you Ginny Girl - having exactly the same problem with Livie at the mo :doh:
I too have gone down the gundog training route & have enrolled her into two clubs local to my area - Have explained our problem to both & each have slightly different opinions, so we'll try both & see if either will be good for Livie (& me :-\ ) I know each trainer has their own methods but I'm going to trust my judgement on whether I like their teachings used & go from there.
I'm no expert but as far as the noisiness goes, if you are only doing for the fun & enjoyment side & to get a better relationship with Bella then I would of thought it not a problem but if you wanted to go on & take it more seriously then maybe it would be - perhaps, when she learns what she can/should be doing, the little noises will stop ....we can but live in hope eh? :005:
Good luck finding somewhere - Manda's (mooching) link is a good place to start. I went on recommendation & searching for one - maybe someone will come along soon, with knowledge of a Trainer in your area - let us know how you get on though ;)
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Think I am going to experiment with what I treat her with so that she is enthusiastic about her reward as she is turning her nose up with our usual treats.
It might help to get a more reliable recall if she has a very high value treat that she only ever gets when she returns quickly. ;)
I followed the whistle recall training advice by Top Barks and my girls only ever get pilchard cake on a whistle recall. I call them back to me often on my walks and they are rewarded by fuss or other treats. The pilchard cake is reserved just for a whistle recall.
My girls return very promptly when they hear the whistle as they know it means a great treat. It does help that my girls are very greedy. ;) :005:
There is a recipe for pilchard/tuna/liver cake on COL ;)
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Thanks everyone for your reply's. I really just want the training to help build the bond with Bella and I and enable her to channel her energy into something she is naturally meant to do. I suppose i dont want to join a group that is too serious as I want it to be fun and enjoyable. Ive had a look on the Gun dog website; I am going to ring when their phone lines are open on Monday as I would like to talk to someone before booking to make sure I'm choosing the right course. I am looking at the starter packs for the equipment and book on the site too and maybe will start training with her whilst waiting to access a club.
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Be careful when searching for a trainer. I found alot of them use harsh old fashion methods, that just arent necessary IMO. Look for a class where both the dogs and handlers are having fun.
In my case I found a lady local who I like and doesnt use any sort of physical punishment but does use stearn voices and encourages us to do the same (and lots of positive noises when they do well). Clover is ok with this and its actually improved her behaviour but Ive had to stop taking Dexter as his recall went downhill as a result of her methods. I now go with CLover learn the exercises and teach them to Dexter privately with lots of rewards and encouragement and treating any mistakes hes made as no big deal (which he really seems to need).
SO my advice is to trust your insticts, dog training isnt regualated so if you dont think something is right or that its working for you stop going.
If you used a dog trainer for puppy classes that you liked its worth having a chat with them to see if they can recommend anyone specifically for gun dog work. Very often they will have contacts for you to try.
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I've been muttering about this for weeks now. Posie is a working Cocker too and she has already shown signs of natural inclination to the working traits. She is from a Field Champion pedigree and directly from currently working dogs 2 or 3 generations back, so not too surprising really.
I did some online research and found The Gundog Club too. This was the bit that got me interested: http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/Training/courses/index.html
I haven't done anything more about it yet and I think I've just missed the start of their current course. It's not cheap but it is more geared towards family/pet working dog breeds so might be more suitable for our needs. I have no intention of hunting with her either.
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Mwahahahahaaaa, no intention of working, yes I used to say that as well :lol2:
The only criticisms of the Gundog Club courses that I have heard are that they are time limited and working to an exam, so you can feel a bit pressurised to move things on as opposed to letting the dog set the pace, and that they are possibly a bit sterile as game is not really introduced.
Personally I went down the route of 1-2-1 lessons with a trainer, this also had its drawbacks as Henry didn't get used to working with the distraction of other dogs around. But we were able to concentrate on what we needed rather than on what an exam syllabus said. The trainer I picked was recommended to me on here, she believes in clicker training, learning through play and positive methods. If you post your general area on here you may be able to get a similar recommendation.
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The Gundog Club doesn't seem to be very active. I missed the first week of the only basic course in my area (for over a hundred miles in fact) and then found out that today was the second week. Doh! When I went to the websit just now to look for more courses I had to go to the FAQ to see what they were saying about upcoming dates. It tells you that all the dates are on the website and that the website is the most up to date information. It hasn't been udated since October 2010 so not really much help. For my perspective as a customer, that is a bad sign of how an organisation works, especially one that is making profit and taking my money.
I'm fortunate that we are very close to lots of working farms and shoots so I should be able to track down somebody to help.
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I too have gone the way of 1-2-1 lessons and am lucky that my trainer is very positive. The dogs love it, as I do and I'm never asked to do anything to my dogs that I'm not happy with.
we are working our way through the dgundog club tests and we just arrange group tests wehn there are enough of us ready. I'd like to do the working certificate at some point, and hopefully get myself rganised to find some beating this year.
I love watching the dogs do what they were bred to do....
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Lots of info. When I get my pup if I start her on clicker training and then start gundog training will this confuse her or will she understand what it what? Was going to start with puppy school and move on to gundog. A lady in our area does gundog training and has emailed me to say the skills for that can start almost straight away on a low level getting used to the whistle. Any advice, I am blinded by science.... :-\
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Lots of info. When I get my pup if I start her on clicker training and then start gundog training will this confuse her or will she understand what it what? Was going to start with puppy school and move on to gundog. A lady in our area does gundog training and has emailed me to say the skills for that can start almost straight away on a low level getting used to the whistle. Any advice, I am blinded by science.... :-\
Gun dog training and clicker training dont need to be mutually exclusive.
Clicker training can be very useful in gun dog work althou not many of the instructors use this method. Clickers allow you to reward at a distance and to pin point the exact behaviour you want which makes it an ideal tool if you want to use it.
At puppy school they will teach you things like sit and recall with verbal ques and hand signals but once they are sitting to the hand signal que you can easierly apply the whistle. I use my sit hand signal whilest blowing the whistle to first introduce the noise and if they get stuck or if Im asking for a particularly difficult sit (such as over a long distance or with high destractions) I will often give the hand signal as well to ensure they dont misunderstand.
Its up to you really as to how you want to approach it. Ive dabbled in lots of different doggy activities and for the most part nothing conflicts. If it does I apply a different word so that my dog can learn the difference and knows what I expect.
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Hi sarah, thank you for that, its really helpful. ;)
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Most references I've read talk about gundog training only starting at 6 months minimum, so you should have lots of time to get the basic obedience going. We dropped out of the puppy classes after one session, initially because of illness but then because she was doing so well without them (those of you who read my posts about the class I went to will be interested to hear that I met several other owners who had the same impression as I did).
Posie is now 8 months old and I think I'm going to have to get one to one training as I've missed the Gundog Club course start and there is no sign of another one starting anytime soon (or of them updating their website this year). Hopefully I can find somebody through my brother's shooting friends.
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We did a grade 1 gundog training course with our first working cocker Otto from when he was 6 months. It was a good basic start but as someone said can be restrictive as it is the same day and time for 8 weeks with an exam in the last week. That said he passed with distinction ;)
Since then we went down the route of either 121's or joining other groups of like minded people with dogs of similar ability arranged through the trainer directly. This was primarily to have a bit of flexibility on the days and times of the training but also because Otto gets more out of these sessions as opposed to the regimented grade sessions as we are working to a programme specifically for him.
My new boy Albie is 5 and a half months and so was too young to join the latest grade one the trainer was offering through the gundog club so he too is having 121 sessions and absolutely flying with them after just 4 weeks of lessons.
I would thoroughly recommend it, our trainer is based in Leek and I can't recommend her enough. In fact the dogs now stay there on holiday let as well :D
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Would anyone mind me asking the personal question of what the rates are for one to one training, Ive made some enquires but no prices have come back as yet.Im so green I wouldnt know if it was the right price or not....lol Also the price of the group training? Are they usually on a weekend?
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I pay about £35 for an hour 1-2-1.
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Blimey, thats a bit more than I thought but I guess its worth it in the end. How many one to one sessions are needed, I guess it depends on the dog. I hope mine learns quick..... :011:
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I know what you mean, but it was really worth it! I went once every 5-6 weeks, so it wasn't too often. I guess I had maybe 6 or 7 sessions, now I go to a group obedience class every so often and I'd just have a 1-2-1 if we had a specific problem to work on. I'll probably have a session before the start of next season, but that will be it. I don't know if my trainer is comparatively cheap, expensive, about dead on? I just know she's really rather good :D
How many you need will depend where you are starting from, how your dog is and how good you are about doing your homework :lol2:
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Hanandhen,
THank you for that,
I better start saving the pennies....lol :P
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I use a lady that charges £20 an hour for my two dogs being handled by me and my OH. I think its £15 if its just one dog.
She runs classes through the gun dog club that are much more expensive, and once you have approached her through them she says has to pay commision to them for every lesson you have with her after that, which pushes the price up. But because we've contacted her directly she knocks off the commision price, which makes it more affordable.
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I pay £17.50 for a 121 which lasts 45 minutes and £15 for a group session per dog which is an hour. We do go weekly though and with 2 dogs the price mounts but as it is our hobby as well as a hobby for the dogs we do all benefit so we are prepared to pay for it.
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Around £20 for what is supposed to be an hour but he's a mate so usually the lesson is about 2 hours. £25.00 for Training Days which last from about 9 - 3...these are big group sessions for all different abilities....really good fun....i always go with my video :005:
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Hi Sarah
she says has to pay commision to them for every lesson you have with her after that, which pushes the price up.
I am wondering if there is some confusion here. The Gundog Club does not charge commission to any of its trainers and never has.
If you would like to confirm whether or not your trainer is actually GC accredited please feel free to PM me
Pippa
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Has anybody here had recent contact with the Gundog Club? Are they just more active in the south of England or am I missing something?
Their website is rarely updated, the training dates page is blank, and there is nothing happening in Scotland - apparently. Have I mistaken them for an active and national organisation when they are quite niche? Is there another more active club out there that I haven't found?
I lost momentum for training Posie because I couldn't find any specific training locally, so I thought I'd try Agility in the meantime. Unfortunately we have two clubs; one isn't taking any new members and the other hasn't returned my enquiries. Grrr.
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Hi Pete
The Gundog Club's courses page is updated almost daily, I wonder if you have bookmarked an old page? I don't think I am allowed to link but if you go in from the menu on the home page you will find current course dates under the Training Locations link
We are encouraging trainers to move over to an Affiliate Registration system where students book training directly with trainers rather than booking through us, which makes the training cheaper for students, and is the reason why there are fewer 'in-house' courses listed now. There is an Affiliate trainer starting in Borders soon. Whereabouts in Scotland are you?
Pippa
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Thanks Pippa. I followed those instructions (the page wasn't blank - it had a link that I didn't click. Oops!) but it confirms what I thought: everything is in the south of England.
I'm in Aberdeen and there was a course run earlier this year but I missed the start. There was no next date available and when I checked the site stats it said the pages hadn't been updated for months. When I look for trainers I get nothing more than a list that states there is a trainer in Aberdeenshire, but no link or details.
I'm going to www.thegundogclub.co.uk
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Hi Pete
I get nothing more than a list that states there is a trainer in Aberdeenshire
That’s because our Aberdeenshire Instructor is not on the Affiliate Register yet, so training with him has to be booked through our office, on the telephone.
I am sorry that we don’t have any courses in Aberdeen at the moment. Our Aberdeenshire instructor regularly puts aside course dates for us. Unfortunately there simply is not sufficient demand in your area to fill many of his courses. Courses simply fill better in areas where there is a denser population and higher average income. This is especially true since the recession got under way.
We are encouraging our trainers to move over to the Affiliate scheme because it is much better for students, and we are prioritising outlying areas where students find it harder to get on a course, I am hopeful that we will be adding Aberdeen to our Affiliate courses list quite soon.
Sorry I can’t be more helpful at the moment.
Pippa
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That's an interesting point about population. Is it safe to assume that most proper working dogs are just trained by their owners then? Aberdeen is 30 miles from plenty of highland shooting and less than 60 from most of the shooting estates in the north east of Scotlad, so it's fair to say we probably have more genuine working dogs than the most of the UK.
I bumped into a retired gamekeeper on a walk some weeks ago and realised afterwards that I should've asked if he could help train Posie. He knew a lot about working breeds, and Cockers in particular. Posie came from a working farm but unfortunately they are over an hour drive away, so not an option for us.
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Is it safe to assume that most proper working dogs are just trained by their owners then?
Well I haven't done a survey, (though maybe BASC did one a while ago?) but I think it likely that the vast majority of working dogs are trained by the owner alone, perhaps with the help of a book or two.
A lot of people only seek help when they get stuck with a bad problem (which would have been easier to prevent than cure) or if they want to get into competing.
Pippa
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There's a Moray firth Gundog Club, is that too far for you?
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For regular trips, yes I'm afraid it is.
Thanks for all the feedback; we'll get their one way or another.