Gundog training Long Line methods?

[caro]

Okay, so people probably know by now that I have trouble with Fern not coming back after scenting / flushing phessies - which is natural given that she is a working cocker, trouble is she gets her nose down and is off - I am history.  This isn't good whether she's working or not (we dont intend working her but if she could be trained not to dash off then maybe we would).

I managed to get the details of a local gundog trainer.  I chatted to him and he has offered to spend an hour or two with us (for free) to try and help us stop Fern going off.  He said the problem is not recall, the problem is we need to teach her not to go in the first place.

He recommended long line training.  I said that I have researched this and was informed that a harness should be used so as not to cause damage to the dog when you stop the line.  The trainer said that the opposite is required - a check chain collar as the whole point is to put the dog off disobeying a stop command.   He said that when the line is stopped it is likely to pull her off her feet.  He said it wouldn't hurt her.  He said you need her to misbehave in order to correct her, so the ideal way to train would be if she went hurtling off after something and then stand on the line, and the collar will tighten and she'll be on her back!    the idea being that it would put her off doing it again.

  I said to OH last night that I am uncomfortable about it and he said we won't take her then, but he said he didn't mind if it worked and as long as it doesn't harm her. 

Anyway today I contacted our animal welfare officer at work for some advice - not to get the chap into any trouble but just for a second opinion as he used to train hearing dogs - he said that the idea is that the dog shouldn't be aware that the line is there, so it should go on the normal neck collar, (as with a harness she will associate it with having the line on) but it should not be used to tug her off her feet.  It is so the dog thinks it is free, but you are still in control.

So shall I cancel my appointment for Sunday or go along and tell him I don't want to use that method, but chat about alternatives?

[Cob-Web]

I wouldn't give the trainer the time of day if that is what they are suggesting; sadly, this technique is not unusual for "old school" trainers in all disciplines; I heard exactly the same methods recommended to a colleague by a Police Dog Handler the other day 

Please, pelase don't go - and if you are feeling brave, tell him why; that you want to use positive training methods, not fear/aversives 

Your AW officer at work as the right idea, imo - I trained Molo using a long line and harness, but my two dogs wear harnesses when we are out anyway, so he associates the harness with walks, not with a line 

[Helen]

along with fear, a choke chain on a long line could really damage Fern's neck and back.....

I would not go anywhere near this one 

[caro]

This was my worry Helen - Fern is far too precious for this - also the shock for her, it doesn't bear thinking about.  I wasn't sure if it was a common training method or not.  I wonder if any accidents do occur - it is a bit like hanging isn't it!?

[Cob-Web]

I wasn't sure if it was a common training method or not.

Don't feel pressured compromise what you believe in just because you think it might be the "done thing" - rubbing a dogs nose in their mess used to be the common method of housetraining a dog, but that didn't make it right 

Have you tried the APDT? They promote positive training methods, and a couple of one-to-one sessions might help    Just because Fern is a gundog, and her behaviour is based on her instincts, doesn't mean you have to go to a gundog trainer.........

[Nicola]

I wouldn't consider this method, even when Alfie was at his very worst with his running off and chasing it wouldn't have been an option. He would have been garrotted and doG knows what he could have done to himself if he'd been pulled over and landed the wrong way on his head or neck. I tihnk I've posted before about the methods I used to train Alfie out of this, believe me he really was very bad for it, he even took off chasing after a microlight plane once but after a lot of time and perseverance he doesn't take off or chase birds at all now, he's out working several times a week at the moment and he's doing really well.

[Cazzie]

I would most deff cancel your appointment with that gun dogs trainer and tell him his methods are in the dark ages.  

Just because you have a working cocker does not mean that they are the only breed of dog that chases, any dog will regardless of breed  

Once your dog has learned to chase as you have described it is extremely difficult to train them out of them unless you have the experience to do so.

I think the best thing for you to do is to do your homework and seek out a reputable trainer that people have been to and recommend and go down that route.

This all stems back to basic training in a pup and unless you have the knowledege on how to avoid these situations it is a very common occurance.

If you need any help there are a few of us on here who know trainers who could recommend trainers and will do whatever we can to help  

[Cazzie]

I wasn't sure if it was a common training method or not.

Don't feel pressured compromise what you believe in just because you think it might be the "done thing" - rubbing a dogs nose in their mess used to be the common method of housetraining a dog, but that didn't make it right 

Have you tried the APDT? They promote positive training methods, and a couple of one-to-one sessions might help    Just because Fern is a gundog, and her behaviour is based on her instincts, doesn't mean you have to go to a gundog trainer.........

Yes rubbing a dogs nose used to be the common way advised on how to house training but im afraid ive never known anyone so barbaric that they would actually do it, I think common sense would tell anyone that   

[Cob-Web]

I wasn't sure if it was a common training method or not.

Don't feel pressured compromise what you believe in just because you think it might be the "done thing" - rubbing a dogs nose in their mess used to be the common method of housetraining a dog, but that didn't make it right 

Have you tried the APDT? They promote positive training methods, and a couple of one-to-one sessions might help    Just because Fern is a gundog, and her behaviour is based on her instincts, doesn't mean you have to go to a gundog trainer.........

Yes rubbing a dogs nose used to be the common way advised on how to house training but im afraid ive never known anyone so barbaric that they would actually do it, I think common sense would tell anyone that   

Don't apologise, you're lucky Cazzie - but sadly these people do still exist, as do people who think this "check chain and jerk" method of training is the only way that dogs learn     

Positive dog training methods have been slow to be adopted by professional dog handlers; they tend to apply the "it's always worked for me" theory, and not consider the dog at all      

One of the dog walkers that worked for the company we used a few years ago asked if he could do some one-to-one sessions with us teach us to "track" as he was starting his own business and wanted dogs to take part in demonstrations. He is a former Army Dog Handler and has loads of recommendations, and was offering the sessions free - within the first 10 minutes he had yanked Molo off his feet and yelled at him....doG only knows what he did while he was walking him, but I never used the Dog Walking Company again 

[Helen]

This was my worry Helen - Fern is far too precious for this - also the shock for her, it doesn't bear thinking about.  I wasn't sure if it was a common training method or not.  I wonder if any accidents do occur - it is a bit like hanging isn't it!?

it's an 'old fashioned' method caro  -  I'll see if I can find any more forward thinking trainers in my neck of the woods.  Dogs seem to be be quite resilient when you see them on choke chains but the psychological effects of this kind of aversive training AND the long term damage to neck and spine are not immediately visible.

I do agree with one thing that trainer said - it is far far easier to stop a dog before they get a full nose of scent and their hearing disappears then once they have started to flush the bird. 

so the trick is to train Fern to stop before she starts (iyswim  ) Nic will be able to refer you back to the Alfie thread 

[Cazzie]

I wasn't sure if it was a common training method or not.

Don't feel pressured compromise what you believe in just because you think it might be the "done thing" - rubbing a dogs nose in their mess used to be the common method of housetraining a dog, but that didn't make it right 

Have you tried the APDT? They promote positive training methods, and a couple of one-to-one sessions might help    Just because Fern is a gundog, and her behaviour is based on her instincts, doesn't mean you have to go to a gundog trainer.........

Yes rubbing a dogs nose used to be the common way advised on how to house training but im afraid ive never known anyone so barbaric that they would actually do it, I think common sense would tell anyone that   

Don't apologise, you're lucky Cazzie - but sadly these people do still exist, as do people who think this "check chain and jerk" method of training is the only way that dogs learn     

Positive dog training methods have been slow to be adopted by professional dog handlers; they tend to apply the "it's always worked for me" theory, and not consider the dog at all      

One of the dog walkers that worked for the company we used a few years ago asked if he could do some one-to-one sessions with us teach us to "track" as he was starting his own business and wanted dogs to take part in demonstrations. He is a former Army Dog Handler and has loads of recommendations, and was offering the sessions free - within the first 10 minutes he had yanked Molo off his feet and yelled at him....doG only knows what he did while he was walking him, but I never used the Dog Walking Company again 

Yes they do exist but are dying out as people are more clued up now.  I have the most fantastic Gun Dog trainer that a few of us on here go to he too had experience years ago of trainers using hard and harsh methods of which he has had the common sense to realise just do not work in practice. 

I also one day out on a walk met an old chap who trains spaniels, I asked him if he had any good tips for me on training Sweepie and his reply to me was get a good stick and if you want to be kinder use a rolled up news paper  Say no more 

Ive tried various methods of training over the years and have found love, devotion, repetition and perseverance to be the best methods. 

[cazza]

Ive tried various methods of training over the years and have found love, devotion, repetition and perseverance to be the best methods. 

Totally agree with this   

[Cob-Web]

Yes they do exist but are dying out as people are more clued up now.  I have the most fantastic Gun Dog trainer that a few of us on here go to he too had experience years ago of trainers using hard and harsh methods of which he has had the common sense to realise just do not work in practice. 

The problem is that for many dogs, these technique do "seem" to work - many professional working dogs, including police dogs and even guide dogs are trained using "traditional methods"........and these dogs do learn the things they need to in order to do their jobs 

[caro]

Thanks ever so guys, I knew I couldn't put Fern through this sort of training.  I spent all night and today worrying about it.  I shall ring the man tomorrow - hopefully he won't be there and I can just leave a message.  I shall say that we have a few other things we want to try.  We will get a long line and use that in the normal non barbaric way!  Fern has been as good as gold today (although on the retractable lead in the temptation areas) and I love her too much to hurt her.  I'd rather do that for ever than put her through this man's idea of training.

I looked on the APDT website and there is somebody who is in the next village (not the one with the gundog trainer) so I will see how I get on by myself and if it doesn't work I will give her a ring.  She is also a dog walker and sitter so would be handy to know.  I don't have any recommendations for her though (or anyone else!).  If I do need help and there is anyone you know of locally Helen 

When we first got Fern I was given a number of a man who had cockers and he said about newspapers, he also said to walk with a tennis racket swaying left and right at your side and bop them with it if they try and get in front of you.  He also said he picks his up like a handbag!  He offered for us to take Fern over but we didn't  for obvious reasons!

We didn't have any problem with Fern chasing anything when she was a pup.  We moved here when she was 14 months old and the pheasants didn't come along until she was about 16 or 17 months old and that was the last shooting season - in between times she has been great again and walks were fine, but now the pheasants are in abundance again, the problem has come again.  Hence  she is now 2 and a half years old.  If it weren't for the shoot being on our doorstep there wouldn't be a problem.  I do hope it isn't too late.

[Coco]

Just to say that as a general thing and for others reading this, don't forget any training methods, whatever they are, are going to have to be things that you feel confident and happy with doing yourself also when you practise at home. There is little point a trainer doing anything that you are not going to be willing or able to continue with so you need to be totally comfortable with the methods.