positive field training

[winewood]

Can anyone suggest any good books on training cocker's using only positive training. Feel I'm stuck in the middle, attending local obedience club which only uses positive training of food rewards which is great, best way to train cocker's but ... I could have a whole cooked chicken in my hand when they get scent of a rabbit, and they wouldn't care they are off Indi will come back not instantly, Kody well he is a two year old boy , say no more. Then the people at various Gundog clubs tell me to ditch the food they are not babies any more,  no more food!! and want me to train more the old ways so I'm confussed at the moment I know both are very sensitive and would not cope with harsh treatment and will admit have tried being harder on them both and tried a long lead its successful on lead but they are clever and soon as the lead is off they know. Does anyone have the answer or am I expecting to much from young dogs with a first time trainer,  me ?

[Helen]

how about this one?

http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/acatalog/gundogbk.html


also, I was reading an article about working cockers in New Zealand the other day - you may be able to get some trans-tasman advice (will see if I can find the details  )

[wrenside]

On the case of rabbits, books can only got so far in my opinion. Hands on experience works better in my opinion. It might well be worth investing in a day in a gun dog trainers rabbit pen. I have access to a very rabbity bit of land up in Cumbria and there I can use the dogs to find live rabbits sitting in the dry stone walls. I take the live rabbit out of the wall, tell my dog to sit next to me and then I let the rabbit bolt from my hands. I let the dog watch the rabbit exit the field and then I ask the dog to heel in the opposite direction to where the rabbit went. Then I do some fun ball retrieves etc... After doing this many times the dog becomes less excited by bolting rabbits and soon you are able to sit your dog at a distance and have a rabbit bolt from your hands and then call the dog back to you and heel etc...
I then use a long lead and allow the dog to "hunt" through a bit of rushy ground that I know will have some rabbits sitting in it (I usually do this in the corner of a field so that if the dog does give chase he can't go far). As soon as the dog finds a rabbit I pip once on my whistle which is my stop/sit command and I put my foot on the trailing long lead. This way the dog understands that he should stop and sit when he finds rabbits or any other game, but if he does get tempted into giving chase he can't because you've go the other end of the long lead. Pip again to get the dog to sit once he's calmed down a bit and then praise him. Again, repeat this as many times as you can and soon your dog becomes "steady" on live bolting game.

I hope this all makes sense! 

Best wishes

Mary

[Sarah.H]

With regards to ignoring food when they spot a rabbit, one important thing I've learned with Millies recall training is that she is not to have food at any other time. And if she ignores me (she's on a 30m rope as well) then she simply doesn't have that meal. Slowly but surely we're getting there - I hope  .

[Cob-Web]

I have access to a very rabbity bit of land up in Cumbria and there I can use the dogs to find live rabbits sitting in the dry stone walls. I take the live rabbit out of the wall, tell my dog to sit next to me and then I let the rabbit bolt from my hands. I let the dog watch the rabbit exit the field and then I ask the dog to heel in the opposite direction to where the rabbit went. Then I do some fun ball retrieves etc... After doing this many times the dog becomes less excited by bolting rabbits and soon you are able to sit your dog at a distance and have a rabbit bolt from your hands and then call the dog back to you and heel etc...

Um, are these wild rabbits?   How on earth do you get close enough to catch them ?  Don't they get a bit stressed by being handled (many pet rabbits get incredibly stressed being picked up as it mimics being captured by a predator, so it must be worse for wild bunnies) Also, what happens if the dog does go after the rabbit? 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not sentimental about rabbits and know they are pests - but I don't like the idea of any animal being deliberately stressed unecessarily 

[wrenside]

Most dogs when out beating won't be tempted or motivated by treats, some will take the treat from you out of politeness but will spit it out.
Treats are fantastic for teaching and reinforcing recall in a park environment or similar. But when live game is involved and the dog is switched onto hunt mode, physical and verbal praise are generally received better in my experience.
Repetition of the long line method and general desensitizing the dog to rabbits running around, combined with fun dog/handler focused games and retrieves in rabbity environments are the main stays for producing steadiness in dogs.

Good luck! It does pay off    I promise you that theres nothing more wonderful than owning the only spaniel that hasn't decided to give chase to the wayward rabbit that's popped up in the middle of a big pheasant drive 

Best wishes

Mary

PS: Yes the rabbits are wild rabbits. My dogs work along the dry stone walls and once they smell the rabbit sitting in the wall they stop and sit. I then remove a loose stone from the wall, pop my hand in and grab the rabbit (poachers have been doing this for years to get a rabbit meal without using a gun or other trapping method) I then place the stone back into the wall with the rabbit tucked under my arm. It probably is quite stressful for the rabbit, but I do handle them very gently and ultimately I'm using them to teach my dogs not to chase them, so in the long run I'm hopefully minimising the stress that my dogs will cause any wild game because they won't chase anything. The rabbits up on our land are all rather tame now anyway  because of the regular handling they get!! 

[Cazzie]

I have access to a very rabbity bit of land up in Cumbria and there I can use the dogs to find live rabbits sitting in the dry stone walls. I take the live rabbit out of the wall, tell my dog to sit next to me and then I let the rabbit bolt from my hands. I let the dog watch the rabbit exit the field and then I ask the dog to heel in the opposite direction to where the rabbit went. Then I do some fun ball retrieves etc... After doing this many times the dog becomes less excited by bolting rabbits and soon you are able to sit your dog at a distance and have a rabbit bolt from your hands and then call the dog back to you and heel etc...

Um, are these wild rabbits?   How on earth do you get close enough to catch them ?  Don't they get a bit stressed by being handled (many pet rabbits get incredibly stressed being picked up as it mimics being captured by a predator, so it must be worse for wild bunnies) Also, what happens if the dog does go after the rabbit? 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not sentimental about rabbits and know they are pests - but I don't like the idea of any animal being deliberately stressed unecessarily 

I use my own pet rabbits for training. Yes the dogs do make a surge for the rabbits, but anyone who is training a working gun dog, would not be setting their dog up to fail, so there for will start with on lead work first getting the dogs used to not chasing, then once confident will walk the dog to heel through a pen of rabbits making the dog concentrate and listen to their commands rather that looking to chase thumper 

[Cob-Web]

I have access to a very rabbity bit of land up in Cumbria and there I can use the dogs to find live rabbits sitting in the dry stone walls. I take the live rabbit out of the wall, tell my dog to sit next to me and then I let the rabbit bolt from my hands. I let the dog watch the rabbit exit the field and then I ask the dog to heel in the opposite direction to where the rabbit went. Then I do some fun ball retrieves etc... After doing this many times the dog becomes less excited by bolting rabbits and soon you are able to sit your dog at a distance and have a rabbit bolt from your hands and then call the dog back to you and heel etc...

Um, are these wild rabbits?   How on earth do you get close enough to catch them ?  Don't they get a bit stressed by being handled (many pet rabbits get incredibly stressed being picked up as it mimics being captured by a predator, so it must be worse for wild bunnies) Also, what happens if the dog does go after the rabbit? 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not sentimental about rabbits and know they are pests - but I don't like the idea of any animal being deliberately stressed unecessarily 

I use my own pet rabbits for training. Yes the dogs do make a surge for the rabbits, but anyone who is training a working gun dog, would not be setting their dog up to fail, so there for will start with on lead work first getting the dogs used to not chasing, then once confident will walk the dog to heel through a pen of rabbits making the dog concentrate and listen to their commands rather that looking to chase thumper 

I agree; my new bunnies are very dog-savvy, and so would be far less stressed in that situation than a wild bun that has been sniffed out, hoisted out of it's hidey hole and then let go again - I'd love to do a study on natural selection on that hillside; I bet a lot of them die of shock 

[Cazzie]

I have access to a very rabbity bit of land up in Cumbria and there I can use the dogs to find live rabbits sitting in the dry stone walls. I take the live rabbit out of the wall, tell my dog to sit next to me and then I let the rabbit bolt from my hands. I let the dog watch the rabbit exit the field and then I ask the dog to heel in the opposite direction to where the rabbit went. Then I do some fun ball retrieves etc... After doing this many times the dog becomes less excited by bolting rabbits and soon you are able to sit your dog at a distance and have a rabbit bolt from your hands and then call the dog back to you and heel etc...

Um, are these wild rabbits?   How on earth do you get close enough to catch them ?  Don't they get a bit stressed by being handled (many pet rabbits get incredibly stressed being picked up as it mimics being captured by a predator, so it must be worse for wild bunnies) Also, what happens if the dog does go after the rabbit? 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not sentimental about rabbits and know they are pests - but I don't like the idea of any animal being deliberately stressed unecessarily 

I use my own pet rabbits for training. Yes the dogs do make a surge for the rabbits, but anyone who is training a working gun dog, would not be setting their dog up to fail, so there for will start with on lead work first getting the dogs used to not chasing, then once confident will walk the dog to heel through a pen of rabbits making the dog concentrate and listen to their commands rather that looking to chase thumper 

I agree; my new bunnies are very dog-savvy, and so would be far less stressed in that situation than a wild bun that has been sniffed out, hoisted out of it's hidey hole and then let go again - I'd love to do a study on natural selection on that hillside; I bet a lot of them die of shock 

Wild bunnies are tougher and alot wiser than you think  This is why ALL dogs should be trained NOT to chase, and infact why it is illegal (not for the poor bunnies) for anyones dog to chase un controlled off lead, hares, deer, pheasants and some 

[Cob-Web]

Wild bunnies are tougher and alot wiser than you think  This is why ALL dogs should be trained NOT to chase, and infact why it is illegal (not for the poor bunnies) for anyones dog to chase un controlled off lead, hares, deer, pheasants and some 

Not the ones I have nursed back to health, (and even more that didn't make it) poor little things are genetically programmed to run for their lives, and being chased/caught/lifted must send a rush of adrenaline through their bodies that beats any rollercoster ride 

It's not exactly accurate to say it is illegal for a dog to chase a mammal in the wild in all circumstances - it is illegal for anyone to go out and deliberately intend to allow their dog to chase and/or kill; accidents (even of foxes when the hunts are out drag hunting) are not illegal and no-one will be prosecuted if their dog chases and kills a hare or pheasant accidentally 

[Cazzie]

Wild bunnies are tougher and alot wiser than you think  This is why ALL dogs should be trained NOT to chase, and infact why it is illegal (not for the poor bunnies) for anyones dog to chase un controlled off lead, hares, deer, pheasants and some 

Not the ones I have nursed back to health, (and even more that didn't make it) poor little things are genetically programmed to run for their lives, and being chased/caught/lifted must send a rush of adrenaline through their bodies that beats any rollercoster ride 

It's not exactly accurate to say it is illegal for a dog to chase a mammal in the wild in all circumstances - it is illegal for anyone to go out and deliberately intend to allow their dog to chase and/or kill; accidents (even of foxes when the hunts are out drag hunting) are not illegal and no-one will be prosecuted if their dog chases and kills a hare or pheasant accidentally 

Well I know one thing rachael, I certainly would not be proud if one of my dogs jiggered off and killed anythng regardless, and another thing, if a dog came back to you with a rabbit it had badly injured would you be confident in dispatching that rabbit to put it out of it misery  As I know I couldnt do it 

[Cazzie]

Oh and another thing, if you know your dog will chase, then you are going out hunting with your dog OUT of control, unless you know that your dog will stop the minit you tell it 

[Cob-Web]

Well I know one thing rachael, I certainly would not be proud if one of my dogs jiggered off and killed anythng regardless, and another thing, if a dog came back to you with a rabbit it had badly injured would you be confident in dispatching that rabbit to put it out of it misery  As I know I couldnt do it 

No, you may not be proud (and I understand you might be a bit sensitive at the moment as you were faced with a dog that did "jigger off" today) - but it is not illegal    A lot of sight hound owners are faced with the dilemma that you were today; dispatching injured prey 

Oh and another thing, if you know your dog will chase, then you are going out hunting with your dog OUT of control, unless you know that your dog will stop the minit you tell it 

I don't go out hunting with my dog at all  most pet owners don't ; but that doesn't mean that they won't face a situation where their pet catches prey 

[Cazzie]

Well I know one thing rachael, I certainly would not be proud if one of my dogs jiggered off and killed anythng regardless, and another thing, if a dog came back to you with a rabbit it had badly injured would you be confident in dispatching that rabbit to put it out of it misery  As I know I couldnt do it 

No, you may not be proud (and I understand you might be a bit sensitive at the moment as you were faced with a dog that did "jigger off" today) - but it is not illegal    A lot of sight hound owners are faced with the dilemma that you were today; dispatching injured prey 

Rachael, imy dog/dogs did not jigger off, they were sent off by me in a wood where I use for hunting on their usual walk and was unfortunate for one of my hens that it met its death as I did not know they were in there, not for the fact it was injured but the fact it was stressed and I did infact wring its neck its unfortunate that hens do not fly like pheasants and will not flush like pheasants. Now if the situation was different and goose had infact retrieved a pheasant that had been trapped and I had to dispatch it it would infact have been illegal and I would have had my backside kicked by Will.

[Cob-Web]

Rachael, imy dog/dogs did not jigger off, they were sent off by me in a wood where I use for hunting on their usual walk and was unfortunate for one of my hens that it met its death as I did not know they were in there, not for the fact it was injured but the fact it was stressed and I did infact wring its neck its unfortunate that hens do not fly like pheasants and will not flush like pheasants. Now if the situation was different and goose had infact retrieved a pheasant that had been trapped and I had to dispatch it it would infact have been illegal and I would have had my backside kicked by Will.

Yes, it would have been - because you say that you sent your dog into the wood to hunt......most of us don't do this - we allow our dogs to play, and run, and chase balls - as pets, they are not trained to hunt - and if they unfortunately stumble across a sick hare or a trapped pheasant which they catch then it is classed as as ACCIDENT - and therefore not illegal   


Owning dogs that are trained to flush and hunt comes with additional responsibilities...... For pet dog owners, the Hunting with Dogs legislation is of no consequence and should not be considered a threat to normal activities    A number of the pro-hunting lobby (especially here where they are particularly activist) have twisted this law to scare pet-dog owners into supporting them, and it just isn't true