Author Topic: Kind Gun Dog Training?  (Read 4497 times)

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Offline sophiew

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Kind Gun Dog Training?
« on: September 23, 2009, 08:01:59 AM »
Hi

We are about to welcome home our new puppy, who is working type. When she's big enough I'd like to do agility or trials with her but my boyfriend is into shooting and would like to be able to work her on a shoot (which I know nothing about, but have been researching!). Several people so far, including the breeder, have said that a working dog has to be a working dog and not a pet. We want her to be a pet first and foremost and then enjoy doing other things with her  - I can't see why this is any different to having a pet that does agility, or a pet that does obedience?

I know traditionally gun dog training is thought of as quite harsh, but has it moved on these days? I bought a book but I had a quick scan through it last night and even that says that when a pup starts formal training, you need to stop giving it normal exercise and freedom? I'd like to take her to a gundog class (there is one near us once a month) but I'm worried about the methods they'll use. I know I can go and watch first though to make sure.

Does anyone here work their 'pet' cockers on shoots?

Thanks

Sophie
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Offline Helen

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2009, 08:28:59 AM »
I do, and so does Nicola - that view of 'a working dog cannot be a pet as well' is truly outdated (although I encountered it with a few trainers here - who were the type that thought suspending a dog in the air by it's slip lead was a good way to teach your dog a lesson  ::) )

I have friends who have 2 labs and 4 springers and all work - I utterly respect their methods (kind, working 'with' the dogs and not bullying them) and the dogs are all 'pets' as well so it can be done - their dogs are exceptional in the field and the relationship of mutual respect and adoration is plain to see (and it's wonderful to see a pile of tired happy gundogs in front of the fireplace snoozing after a shoot  :luv:)

There are lots of gun dog trainers who don't use aversive methods so I would take yourself off to some local classes to watch and see what you find  ;)  You can even clicker train gundogs - check out a book by Helen Phillips  'Clicker Gundog training'.

As for restricting it's freedom, well that's up to how seriously and far you want to take the training - if I were training for field trialling purposes then yes, it is important that training comes first at all times - but for the occasional shoot I think you can compromise  ;)
helen & jarvis x


Offline sophiew

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 08:51:33 AM »
Thank you - I've been to look at a gundog training website and there are courses near me so perhaps worth a look - I guess it depends on the trainer.

I'll definitely look at that book too - clicker training gun dogs. Sounds right up my street!

Just conscious that I don't want to be inadvertently teaching the puppy as a pup something that is incompatible with it working later on... don't want to confuse the poor little thing! I've been looking at pictures on here of cockers out working and they look so happy!

Sophie
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Offline Joules

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 08:58:42 AM »
Helen or Nic will confirm but I read somewhere you should avoid playing tug games if you are intending to work your dog for retrieving - makes them reluctant to hand over their retrieve.  :-\

Lots of people use positive training methods for all sorts of activities these days.  :D I am currently doing a fun gundog training course with Coco.  She would be a rubbish gundog (too noisy  ph34r ) but she is using her natural instincts and she absolutely loves it.  The trainer works her dogs and she only uses praise and rewards to train hers to do proper gundog work.   :D  It is wonderful to see a dog that is well trained and loving to work just for a bit of fuss or praise or a tasty treat  :D

I agree that they idea that a dog cannot be a working dog and a pet is outdated too.  ::)  Sadly there are a lot of trainers who use old fashioned and unkind methods  >:D

Maybe you can go along and watch a few classes and see if you are happy with their methods so you can start some training with your pup when she is a bit older. :dunno:
Julie and Watson

Offline Helen

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 09:11:21 AM »
we play tug games :shades: ph34r but only with a tuggy toy - with training and gundog dummies there is no tugging or play

The best advice I can give is to not let your pup chase any birds/rabbits - I did with Jarvis with seagulls but fortunately I could train him out of it (it wasn't too bad though as nothing to him compares with a pheasant and it's almost like it's a totally different creature).  We did turn it around with seagulls by actually giving him a command to chase and he soon learnt only to chase when we let him.....it was a weaning off process  :lol2:
helen & jarvis x


Offline cockyjim

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 10:16:55 AM »
Hi,

My three are pets first gundogs second and agility dogs last.

My wife doesnt do agility and she hate's shooting.
but she loves having dogs around and long walks.

I try and maintain a level of dicipline so if kids visit they can play with the dogs
but it's on my terms such as make sure every game of fetch they play returns to hand.
the kids dont chase the dogs etc. basically dont let the dog do what you wouldnt want it to do on a shoot.

the more you train them and give them work ie retrieving or agility courses the better a pet you will have
they dont have all that built up frustration and you create a great trusting bond.

As for gundog training being harsh.
My dad has a dog that "failed" as a trialing dog, he was trained with harsh methods. if you frown at him he hits the deck in submission. That is not the way to train a dog.
using positive methods produces a hard working dog that is a pleasure to watch. lots of trainers are on to this now but if your worried buy a book and do it yourself.

pretty much if you wouldnt punish a child like that dont do it to a dog!


Offline sophiew

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 10:47:52 AM »
Thanks for all the replies! I've done some clicker training with my lab and am very much wanting to do positive training with the pup from day 1, just didn't want to sign up to gundog class and find it to be something I wasn't expecting! I've spoken to the Gundog Club, they seem a nice bunch, has anyone been to their training? They do a puppy book which I'm looking at getting.

I agree, the more things to keep their minds busy, the better!

Can't wait!

Sophie
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Offline Nicola

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 10:50:56 AM »
I agree with what everyone has said so far, my 3 are all used for working (or in the little one's case being trained for it) and take part in the odd working test and scurries etc. but they are also pets. I stand somewhere to the side of your breeder's view in that I don't think that working Cockers should be bred and sold purely as pets and I do think they thrive in a certain lifestyle but I don't believe that they have to be kept outside in kennels and never get to play or run around with other dogs etc.

I have to be honest though and say that if you are really serious about training a dog to a high level, either to be a top level working dog or most definitely a field trial/competition dog then you do have to limit their freedom somewhat, especially while they are being trained. I am training 8 month old Caoimhe to hopefully compete (although it's very difficult to get into) and she doesn't get to walk with the other two dogs, all her training is separate and she doesn't get to run around and do whatever she likes when we're out as if they get into the habit of free hunting for themselves and going too far from you it's hard to break; unless she's retrieving something the furthest she goes from me is about 7 yards. She gets plenty of play though and we have a massive garden in which she gets to play with the other dogs every day although under supervision. I never throw things for the other dogs when she's around or let her randomly run around after toys, retreives must always be done on command and returned to hand and it goes without saying that she has never had the opportunity to chase birds, rabbits etc. I don't play tug games with her at this stage either.

Once their training gets to a certain level though then I can be much more relaxed, I did all the above with Rodaidh as well but once I was happy that his training had reached an established level he could go on big group walks, play fetch for fun, play tug with certain toys etc. because he knows the difference in play and working. Obviously I still maintain his training and he has a training session pretty much every day, as does Tilly, sometimes I train them together and sometimes separately and there are some things I just never let them do - bog off hunting on their own, chase any birds or game or ignore a stop whistle or recall being the main ones. If however you're only going to do the odd shoot here and there with your dog then you don't have to be quite so exacting, obviously though they still have to be trained to a certain level and know what to do and what not to do or you'll struggle to get invited back to many shoots :005:  

There are a lot of outdated views out there on training methods as has been said but using harsh or intimidating methods is absolutely not necessary when training dogs to work. I am firm with my dogs and I do expect them to listen to me and do as I ask but I do it with kind motivation - treats in the very early stages and always the '3 P' approach of praise, petting and play which are the motivators that they work for. The motivators are different for each dog; for Tilly getting to retrieve something is her highest motivation, for Rodaidh a chest rub and some excited praise are what really get him going. Go along to a few training classes and see what you think of them and speak to a few local dog owners and see if there are any they recommend or don't recommend and try the Gundog Club, they run training classes in most areas and have a system of graded tests which are fun to do.  
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline sophiew

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 11:07:08 AM »
Thank you for your reply, that really helps. I'm going to the kennels to see the pup's sire and they are gundog trainers, so I'll have a chat with them about trainers while I'm there  ;) and the Gundog Club I've been looking at and there are a few classes near me that start in Spring when the puppy will be 6 months. I like the idea of working towards grades.

I doubt we'll compete at it, but as you say - would rather not upset a shoot if we're invited!  :005:

Lots to think about and digest. I guess I'll read the book I bought and take it or leave it re: the advice given - not going to do anything I don't feel comfortable with!

Thank you for all your input

Sophie
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Offline Birdie Wife

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 11:17:24 AM »
They do a puppy book which I'm looking at getting.

Get it!  It's really good.  I got their gun dog puppy pack which gives you a puppy lead, collar, training book and a puppy dummy which was good value for the package, and did tell me some things that were different from the usual puppy guides, i.e. things you're not supposed to do with gun dog puppies that you would do with other dogs, and it goes into more detail about how to teach proper retrieves etc. Nice, postive methods too.

Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2009, 11:19:26 AM »
Lots to think about and digest. I guess I'll read the book I bought and take it or leave it re: the advice given - not going to do anything I don't feel comfortable with!


That is the best attitiude to have when gundog training.  :D

I never do anything with my dogs that feels wrong

Offline sophiew

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2009, 11:31:32 AM »
Lots to think about and digest. I guess I'll read the book I bought and take it or leave it re: the advice given - not going to do anything I don't feel comfortable with!


That is the best attitiude to have when gundog training.  :D

I never do anything with my dogs that feels wrong

Thank you - was hoping someone else had read it! Will go and order it now  ;)

Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2009, 11:34:44 AM »
Lots to think about and digest. I guess I'll read the book I bought and take it or leave it re: the advice given - not going to do anything I don't feel comfortable with!


That is the best attitiude to have when gundog training.  :D

I never do anything with my dogs that feels wrong

Thank you - was hoping someone else had read it! Will go and order it now  ;)

No I havnt read that particular book I just meant in general. I have read alot of books and got something from all of them but never 100% agreed with any of them is what i meant

Offline Helen

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2009, 11:36:37 AM »
No I havnt read that particular book I just meant in general. I have read alot of books and got something from all of them but never 100% agreed with any of them is what i meant

neither have I - I take the bits I believe in and feel comfortable with and ignore the rest  :shades:
helen & jarvis x


Offline Nicola

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Re: Kind Gun Dog Training?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2009, 12:01:36 PM »
No I havnt read that particular book I just meant in general. I have read alot of books and got something from all of them but never 100% agreed with any of them is what i meant

neither have I - I take the bits I believe in and feel comfortable with and ignore the rest  :shades:

Exactly, it's like with most things in life, don't be too hasty to take any one thing as absolute gospel or completely write something off because there are bits of it you don't agree with - read widely, speak to different people and take the bits that apply to you and your situation and discard the bits that don't.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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