Gold to Gold Cockers

[anjalahnisl]

Hello to all. I am new to the forums so please have patience. I am curious about something I have recently been told. If you mate a Gold girl to a Gold boy you should only get Gold pups. Is this true or have I been misinformed. I have 2 gold cockers that we were going to breed, (the colour was not an issue with our breeding program) but due to unforseen circumstances that is now not possibe. Could someone please help me out in this subject. I thought I studied well on the breed and now I would just like to know that I am not as dumb as I am feeling right now. Thankyou to anyone who can offer advice.                    

[Jane S]

Yes what you have been told is quite correct, gold to gold should only produce gold puppies (gold being a recessive colour). There is a very rare possibility that 2 golds could produce black but both parents would have to have the unusual colour genes for this to happen - it's too complicated to go into here but suffice to say, it's very unlikely & in most cases if you mate gold to gold, this is the only colour you will get.

Jane                    

[anjalahnisl]

Thankyou Jane,  I thought what I knew was correct.  I was trying to sell my 17mth gold girl and the lady that was interested in her was trying to impress me with her 'knowledge'.  I think I scared her off by actually knowing more about the breed than her.  She told me that her gold girl was bred with a gold boy and she didn't get a single gold pup out of them.  That was my first suspicion.  Then she was trying to tell me that my girl was smaller than my boy because he was an english and she was obviously an american.  Some people never cease to amaze me.  Needless to say I did not sell my girl to her.                    

[Luvlylady]

mabe there parents had the gene , I Really  hope your little girl went to a really nice Forever home                    

[Jane S]

mabe there parents had the gene

Not likely - it's really only a theoretical possibility according to the UK's leading canine geneticist. More likely that another dog got to the bitch while she was in season :wink:

Jane                    

[anjalahnisl]

I don't think she mated gold to gold at all.  I have since found out that she may be breeding spoodles.  I am just glad that I did not selll her my girl.  I will keep looking for a nice home for her.  She has a beautiful nature so someone honest will want her I am sure.                    

[Juel]

Hi folks,
Just wanted to add my experience on here;

My Harvey is a  solid black & his Mom & Dad  were both gold!!, our breeder has one stud dog at the moment who is gold & most of his "ladies" are golds but he seems to get loads of black pups from each litter  :? !!!!

Hope i haven't confused things :oops:

luv
juels xx                    

[Jane S]

Hope i haven't confused things :oops:  

Not at all :wink: I have heard of one UK gold stud dog who sires blacks when mated to some gold bitches so presumably he has the rare genetic make-up mentioned before at the beginning of this thread. I would not expect him to sire blacks to a wide variety of gold bitches though unless they were related to him in some way. The gold bitches would have to have the same rare gene which would be unlikely unless they did share common breeding with the stud dog.

Jane                    

[Juel]

Hi Jane......i'm more confused now!!!!! :?

I went to see our breeder today to tell him about our devastating loss of Honey :cry:  :cry: ......I know i should have told him sooner but just haven't been able to :cry:

Anyway....he now has a new stud dog who is solid chocolate,he as been mated with 2 bitches,both solid gold & both litters have been all black? is this really strange?? i was thinking of another pup,not yet as much too soon after loosing Honey but i'm having my doubts about his pups for the future.....does it sound like interbreeding as been going on?

Hope you don't mind me asking but you seem to be really knowledgeable in this field,
Thanks for any advice,
luv
juels xx                    

[Jane S]

Hi Juels

If you mate a solid chocolate to a solid gold, it is certainly possible for all black puppies to result although it's a bit difficult to explain. Basically, all black pups will result if the chocolate dog does not carry the gold gene & the gold bitch does not carry the liver gene so no other colour can come through except black (for recessive colours like gold & liver to be produced, BOTH parents must carry the gene for that colour). Colour genes are identified by different letters. B & E are the genes which control whether a dog is black, liver or gold (forgetting the other colour genes like the one for tan markings for the moment). "bb" means a dog is chocolate but this dog can be "bbEE" (not carrying the gold gene) or "bbEe" (carrying the gold gene). "ee" means a dog is gold/red but this dog could be "Bbee" (carrying the liver gene) or "BBee" (not carrying the liver gene). If a "bbEE" chocolate dog is mated to a "BBee" gold bitch, all the puppies will be "BbEe", ie black but carrying the recessive genes for gold & liver. Sorry, if this all sounds horribly complicated - it's a bit early in the morning for a crash course in colour genetics

Jane                    

[Phaedra]

Jane, have you got more info/links about the gene that causes red+red to produce black? I'm very interested in colour genetics and have never heard about this before so any info would be great!

Anneli                    

[Jane S]

Jane, have you got more info/links about the gene that causes red+red to produce black? I'm very interested in colour genetics and have never heard about this before so any info would be great!

It's mentioned in my genetics "bible", "Genetics of The Dog" by Malcolm Willis, who refers back to earlier geneticist's works like Clarence Little (1957). I don't think I've seen the info on a website - I'll check later. If you like, I can scan the section on Cocker coat colours & send it to you as the book is sadly out of print & very difficult to buy now.

Jane                    

[Juel]

Thanks for your reply Jane ....complicated stuff eeh  :shock: !!!!  
luv
juels xx                    

[Phaedra]

Jane, that would be...smashing! I will also look for your "bible" in antiquarina bookshops on the Internet and in my hometown Uppsala (which hosts two university one of which is the agricultural university of Sweden, so you never know what you will find! This university has a great library too.).

Thanks for the info!

I myself am thinking about having my first litter ever. Today, I got the hip-results for my bitch: A (best possible) - great! In my mind I have already some stud dogs that I will do research about and one of them, who himself is a blue roan, carries gold (from his mother) as well as liver (from his father). Not that colour matters, but when a dog that you thinks would be a good match turns out to carry nice colour genes it is a bonus!

But we also have eye-testing to do and I would prefer some more good show results + mabye a working test. But you can always make plans!
Anneli                    

[Jane S]

I'm sending you the info Anneli- hope you can read it as the print is quite small & a bit fuzzy, sorry.

Good luck with your future litter - the planning stage is exciting isn't it? It is great to hear of someone putting so much thought into it all, including health screening. I think Scandinavian breeders put a lot of us in the UK to shame :wink:

Jane