CockersOnline Forum

Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: kookie on August 28, 2005, 07:06:29 PM

Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on August 28, 2005, 07:06:29 PM: I've just been to see some adorable cocker pups today, but can anyone tell me what colour these are?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/karen1967/P8280094.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/karen1967/P8280011.jpg)
They are 5 weeks old. Mum and dad are both black and tan.
Here are some other litter mates
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/karen1967/P8280032.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/karen1967/P8280031.jpg)
Title: What Colour
Post by: jakieboy on August 28, 2005, 07:14:12 PM: I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along but could they possibly be sable black/tans.

If you pm'd which breeder to me then its a possibility.

But I'm sure someone will be along that knows more then me

Nikki x
Title: What Colour
Post by: *Jay* on August 28, 2005, 07:18:02 PM: I've never seen pups that colour - will be very interested in the answer ;)
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on August 28, 2005, 07:20:03 PM: We thought they might be sable, but having never seen them in the flesh before, we werent sure.
Title: What Colour
Post by: Cob-Web on August 28, 2005, 07:21:30 PM: I wondered if they were sables......... :unsure: I think I read that sables are quite rare, aren't they?
Title: What Colour
Post by: Emily on August 28, 2005, 07:23:21 PM: you dont get sables in this country the only sables here belong to pam walker ;)
Title: What Colour
Post by: *Jay* on August 28, 2005, 07:28:39 PM: The one in the last photo looks like it could be a chocolate & tan........or is that just me?? :P :lol:
Title: What Colour
Post by: Cob-Web on August 28, 2005, 07:32:23 PM: Without going back to my reference sites; could they be a black/tan roan? I seem to remember that this can't happen though - as tan is recessive?

Oh b****r, I'm going to have to revisit some of the genetics sites I've bookmarked - I'm intrigued now :lol:
Title: What Colour
Post by: Pammy on August 28, 2005, 07:32:26 PM: you could be right Gill - it's difficult form those photo's. My first reaction was Sables - but then I wondered if they're chocolate and tan.

Would be helpful to know where they are and whose litter it is ;)
Title: What Colour
Post by: Jane S on August 28, 2005, 07:32:42 PM: They could be sables but as there's only one sable stud dog in the country & it's not a recessive colour, it's a bit strange where the colour has come from & they don't really look like sables. On the other hand, I'm sure I remember reading about pups that looked this sort of brindle colour when young but when they got older, the two tone effect disappeared - wish I could remember where this was, probably on one of the Yahoo groups. There's definitely some particolour in the lines as one of the pups has a white muzzle :) They're not black/tan roans - tan never appears as roaning as such, just in the traditional places (feet, inside ears, under tail etc).

Jane
Title: What Colour
Post by: Cob-Web on August 28, 2005, 07:34:41 PM: I suppose the sire may not be from the UK..... :unsure:
Title: What Colour
Post by: Emily on August 28, 2005, 07:35:58 PM: Quote
They could be sables but as there's only one sable stud dog in the country & it's not a recessive colour, it's a bit strange where the colour has come from and they don't really look like sables. On the other hand, I'm sure I remember reading about pups that looked this sort of brindle colour when young but when they got older, the two tone effect disappeared - wish I could remember where this was, probably on one of the Yahoo groups. There's definitely some particolour in the lines as one of the pups has a white muzzle :)

Jane
[snapback]143225[/snapback]

Mum said something like this to me "Tiger striped" and it goes when there puppy coat comes out?
Title: What Colour
Post by: Jane S on August 28, 2005, 07:45:04 PM: Quote
Mum said something like this to me "Tiger striped" and it goes when there puppy coat comes out?
[snapback]143229[/snapback]
Yes that what I was thinking - the photos I remember looked exactly like these pups (think they might have been in Germany?)

Jane
Title: What Colour
Post by: Kim on August 28, 2005, 08:01:54 PM: I have seen a pup like this before, although it didn't have the tan markings.
As Emily has said I described it as 'Tiger Striped' after talking to Pam Walker.
It definitely isn't Sable & the markings disappear when the puppy coat comes out.

edited to add - I agree with Jane that there must be particolour in the breeding, which would explain the white muzzle, unless it is an over exposed photo!
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on August 28, 2005, 08:03:07 PM: Is this any help :D
"Sable
This color you describe (black dogs with brindle and gold fringes) sounds like a shaded sable.

Briefly, Sable is a gene in the "A" series. The specific gene is called "ay". The "ay" gene is very common in some breeds....hounds, collies, shelties....but rare in Spaniels.

Sable is inherited in Cockers the same way it is in Collies. You need a sable gene ("ay") combined with the tan gene ("at") for shaded sable to occur. Clear sable looks just like a "normal" red (ee). Some of those reds in the ancestry are probably clear sables.

Dark shaded sables tend to be very dark at birth and sometimes look like black and tans with the tan gone a bit awry. As they mature, the gold/red extends until the body coat is red and the jacket hairs are black tipped.

The Germans have taken quite a fancy to sable and they have become quite commonplace. They are producing both black shaded sable and liver shaded sable. The foundation stock in Germany that produced this color [in English Cocker Spaniels (ECS)] came from Squier's kennel here in the US. Mr. Squier acquired his first sable from a breeder in England.

It is felt by many purists that sable is an inappropriate color for ECS as it implies an impurity.....perhaps a cross at some point to a beagle or other similar type hound. Existing sables today, however, have been bred pure for many generations such that if there was an impurity, it is so diluted as to have no discernible influence on the breed, save the color.

The ECSCA, I believe, does recognize sable and sable parti-color (which I have not seen but understand is stunning) as valid colors although not without it's diehard critics.

Sable can also be liver shaded as well as black shaded although I have not seen any mention of liver sable being known of or accepted here in the US.

From a practical point of view, shaded sable (as opposed to clear sable which looks like normal red, sometimes with a dorsal stripe) is NOT what I would want for a field dog as the color is VERY hard to see. On the other hand, any solid color as well as very dark roan is difficult to see at least part of the year. So any argument on that account loses it's validity.

Folks interested in sable will find the most and possibly the best in Germany. They have become quite common there and are generally of excellent type. Most pedigrees show ancestors from prominent English and European kennels that could be easily utilized with our imports here, if anyone really wanted to pursue this.

Recommended Readings
· Genetics of the Dog by Malcolm Willis"

Extract taken from "A Short Course on Coat Colour in Spaniels" by Karen Fremuth 1997
Title: What Colour
Post by: Cayley on August 28, 2005, 08:14:06 PM: Bearing in mind they are wet in some of the photos which will make the colour look darker, I think they are chocolate and tan. Maybe the shading is from being exposed to sunlight as I've seen chocolate dogs that look like they've been bleached but it's just from being out in the sun alot :D .
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on August 28, 2005, 08:15:36 PM: I also went to see them and they are very dark red under the black.
I thought that chocolate roans were liver and white i have never seen one so i am not sure if you can get them in liver and black :huh:
Title: What Colour
Post by: *-Nikki-* on August 28, 2005, 08:21:43 PM: Quote
Tiger striped" and it goes when there puppy coat comes out
That's what I've been told too ;)
Title: What Colour
Post by: suzysu on August 28, 2005, 08:26:03 PM: Ohhh Karen I don't know what they are but they are GORGEOUS :wub: ......I luv the one with the white nose awwwwwwwww :wub: xxxxxx
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on August 28, 2005, 09:07:53 PM: It's not a well known breeder, only her 2nd litter.
here is the pedigree. I've blocked out pups name and breeder. it might be a bit big, sorry if it is mods, and I'll try and resize it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/karen1967/lottepeda.jpg)

oops, its a bit small, I dont know how to make it bigger
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on August 28, 2005, 09:08:34 PM: Quote
Bearing in mind they are wet in some of the photos which will make the colour look darker, I think they are chocolate and tan. Maybe the shading is from being exposed to sunlight as I've seen chocolate dogs that look like they've been bleached but it's just from being out in the sun alot :D .
[snapback]143235[/snapback]
theyre only 5 weeks old!
Title: What Colour
Post by: Jane S on August 28, 2005, 09:17:12 PM: Quote
It's not a well known breeder, only her 2nd litter.
here is the pedigree. I've blocked out pups name and breeder. it might be a bit big, sorry if it is mods, and I'll try and resize it.
[snapback]143267[/snapback]
Can't read all the names but can see well known solid & particolour affixes :) I think the most likely explanation is that this is "tiger striping" which will disappear once these pups are adults. I'm still trying to find the pics of similar puppies but not having much luck as it means going through 5 years of postings :lol:

Jane
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on August 28, 2005, 11:31:17 PM: "tiger striping" which will disappear once these pups are adults.
<_< how and why does this happy <_<
Title: What Colour
Post by: Jane S on August 29, 2005, 11:01:51 AM: Quote
"tiger striping" which will disappear once these pups are adults.
<_< how and why does this happy <_<
[snapback]143290[/snapback]
No idea sorry. There are some genetic peculiarities which crop up from time to time which are still not understood - when you have so many different colour genes & modifiers acting with each other (as exist in Cockers) perhaps it is not so surprising that sometimes the unexpected happens :) There's no mention of "tiger striping" in Cockers in any genetics books I've come cross and all you can say for sure is that these pups are not true brindles in the genetic sense as the brindle gene is not known in Cockers (and anyway true brindles stay this colour all their lives). I'd guess they will all end up as black & tans when adult (with or without white markings) but time will tell :)

Jane
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on August 29, 2005, 12:02:56 PM: Thanks Jane,
I think there is some choc a few generations back in dads history, so possibly they could be choc.
Theyre gorgeous whayever they are.

.....

It's my birthday on Saturday, ;)
guess what I'm getting for my birthday....

a little girlie cocker!!!!
Woohoo!!!!!!!!!! :wub:
Title: What Colour
Post by: Elisa on August 29, 2005, 01:43:56 PM: You lucky thing!!! :D

<<<<stamps feet on ground and shouts "I want one"!!!>>>> :(
Title: What Colour
Post by: isla on August 29, 2005, 05:14:48 PM: They are gorgeous. No idea what colour they are but I want one!!
Title: What Colour
Post by: amanda on August 29, 2005, 07:15:46 PM: aww, Karen, You're soo lucky. are you getting one of the puppies from the photo's and if so which one? They are all so gorgeous :wub: . I want one, but OH keeps saying no.

My cousin got a choc and tan dobeman pup on saturday (she alreay has a 2 year old black and tan dobie) and it was so cute. it kept hanging off indie's ears and Indie was swinging it around. He loved playing with the pup. I really really want another one. :wub:
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on August 29, 2005, 08:51:04 PM: I've just been in touch with a well known breeder who has bred black and tans for YEARS, she says they do look like sable, but she has requested a look at the pedigree as she suspects some puppy farm breeding on the sire side. I'll keep you posted.
Title: What Colour
Post by: Annette on August 29, 2005, 09:22:49 PM: Wow, this is interesting.

I can't add anything to the discussion, but they are gorgeous whatever they are! :P
Title: What Colour
Post by: suzysu on August 29, 2005, 09:48:49 PM: Ohhh lucky you Karen ;) xxxxxxxxxxxx
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on August 29, 2005, 10:54:01 PM: :D :D :D we think that they are sable.
karen a lucky lucky girl i wish my husband would let me have one :D :D :D
Title: What Colour
Post by: Elisa on August 29, 2005, 11:02:20 PM: Found this on the cocker spaniel club website. Don't know if it's any use:

Tiger Striping , that is bands of black and red or golden sometimes occur as isolated "mistakes" in the message translated between the gene for colour to the colour actually distributed throughout the dog's skin and body coat. This pattern cannot reproduce itself and so cannot be recognised as a colour that can be selectively bred for by even by inbreeding. It would not be regarded as an acceptable colour in the show ring. Tiger striping is quite different to the tan masking and trim gene expressed in the black and tan, for example. It is also different to the brindle pattern expressed in some breeds. It occurs as areas of black and red/golden contained within the main body colour of the dog. It is in effect a fluke of nature.

They are beautiful whatever they are :)
Title: What Colour
Post by: Jane S on August 29, 2005, 11:09:29 PM: Quote
:D :D :D we think that they are sable.
[snapback]143398[/snapback]
But sables aren't really stripey like these pups & there's no sable in the pedigree ;) Whatever, I wouldn't like to be the breeder choosing what colour to register this litter :lol:

Jane
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on August 29, 2005, 11:16:18 PM: Thanks for finding out about tiger striping.
I have e-mail someone with sable pupppies she said They sure are not black & tans, could be liver & tan or maybe sable. Looking only at the coat I would say sable but the face do not look like a sable at all. Sable once came from a mating with black & tan and white and orange. So everything is possible... :blink:

I am going to e-mail her when the pups are 7/8 weeks old to see the change. :)
i think dad has all colours in his pedigree so it could be look.
Title: What Colour
Post by: Cayley on August 30, 2005, 02:09:24 AM: Sable to me is gold with a black back, how could they be sable if they have obvious tan markings? :unsure:
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on August 30, 2005, 06:57:23 AM: I don't really care, they're beautiful and one of them is MINE!!
But it would be nice if they are sable.

Could anyone possibly pm me Pam Walkers contact details, It would be interesting to see what she has to say.
Title: What Colour
Post by: Jane S on August 30, 2005, 09:01:26 AM: Quote
Could anyone possibly pm me Pam Walkers contact details, It would be interesting to see what she has to say.
[snapback]143403[/snapback]
I will PM you Pam's contact details & I'm sure she'll confirm these aren't sables. All the sables in Europe & Scandinavia descend from one line that can be traced back to just one dog exported to the US in the 60s or 70s. Sable in Cockers acts as a dominant gene not like a simple recessive that can stay hidden for generations & pop out so am pretty sure this pedigree does not have sable ;)

Jane
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on August 30, 2005, 02:59:41 PM: Apparently, there is some of Pam Walkers breeding in there somewhere, I'm to send her some pics, and a copy of the ped and she is interested in having a look. She said, sable can be thrown up anywhere depending on the lineage and the colours used, eg choc and orange roan, prob got the colour combination wrong, but she said is isnt impossible, and that they do sound like sable, or have a bit of sable going on. Might not be true sable in the true sense of the word, but still it is possible. Sometimes they dont come into full colour till they are as much as 2 years old.

She is showing 2 sable pups at Stonely Park on sunday, think I might have to have a little look.
Title: What Colour
Post by: lyn on August 30, 2005, 03:59:06 PM: Quote
Apparently, there is some of Pam Walkers breeding in there somewhere, I'm to send her some pics, and a copy of the ped and she is interested in having a look. She said, sable can be thrown up anywhere depending on the lineage and the colours used, eg choc and orange roan, prob got the colour combination wrong, but she said is isnt impossible, and that they do sound like sable, or have a bit of sable going on. Might not be true sable in the true sense of the word, but still it is possible. Sometimes they dont come into full colour till they are as much as 2 years old.

She is showing 2 sable pups at Stonely Park on sunday, think I might have to have a little look.
[snapback]143475[/snapback]

i don't think it matters about colour if you love yours then no problem.i think they are sooo beautiful i would love to have one too.
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on August 30, 2005, 04:01:13 PM: Yes, I know, She's gonna be gorrrrrrrrrgeous and she's gonna be called Daisy! :wub:
Title: What Colour
Post by: Jane S on August 30, 2005, 04:33:49 PM: Quote
i don't think it matters about colour if you love yours then no problem.
[snapback]143481[/snapback]
I don't think anyone is saying that there is a problem with the colour - it's just a really interesting subject :) What Pam W says is interesting too as if sable can crop up anytime with certain colour combinations, it seems strange that none have been registered in the UK apart from the recent litter by her imported sable dog. I wish one of the geneticists would update their books to include sable inheritance as there seems to be a lot of different opinions out there although most seem to agree that it is dominant ie a sable dog will produce sable pups to bitches that do not have the sable gene in their lines.

Jane
Title: What Colour
Post by: suzysu on August 30, 2005, 04:39:11 PM: Quote
Yes, I know, She's gonna be gorrrrrrrrrgeous and she's gonna be called Daisy! :wub:
[snapback]143482[/snapback]
B) Awww another Daisy ........my Daisy sends your little one a BIIIIGGG hug :wub: xxxxxxxx
Title: What Colour
Post by: Kim on August 30, 2005, 06:19:54 PM: Here is a piccy of an adult Sable!
Title: What Colour
Post by: susanne on August 30, 2005, 07:25:09 PM: Hello, i am the breeder of the sire of this litter, the sire comes from my tri colour bitch - Flamingo Tan about Town and black sire partner - Colibra Blackest Jet whom I also owned. I have never seen this striping before and have not heard of any pups from any of my litters producing this colour - surely a one off.
Also a note to the lady suggesting 'puppy farming' in the past generation - certainly not to my knowledge , I am acutely aware of the background to my dogs and I most certainly hope that this is wrong.

Best of luck to Sara with her unusual litter.
Title: What Colour
Post by: speedyjaney on August 30, 2005, 09:52:07 PM: Whatever the pups are they are going to be gorgeous :wub:

I would love to meet your new puppy when she is old enough....a meet is required!! lol .

Cheers

Janey
Title: What Colour
Post by: Kim on August 31, 2005, 07:16:19 AM: Quote
I have never seen this striping before and have not heard of any pups from any of my litters producing this colour - surely a one off.
[snapback]143533[/snapback]

As I said previously, I have seen this before, in a litter sired by a gold dog that is the sire of one of mine.
There was no "and tan" in these puppies, but the coat was identical, there was much hoo haa & excitement about it at the time - the dog was purchased by a show person, but as I mentioned the tiger striping disappeared when the puppy coat came out.
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on September 01, 2005, 09:04:53 AM: Anyway, this is my new little Daisy. Collecting her end of next week!!!!
I just cant wait!!!!!!!!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/karen1967/P8280009.jpg)
Title: What Colour
Post by: isla on September 01, 2005, 09:47:06 AM: She is beautiful. Will be interesting to see what happens with her coat when she's bigger. Jem is black but in certain lights her coat has a brown tinge. Guess thats what makes each pup unique!!

Best of luck
Title: What Colour
Post by: taliska on September 01, 2005, 09:52:13 AM: ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh karen she's gorgeous!! might have to come and take a look, you lucky thing. :D
Title: What Colour
Post by: Dunton4 on September 01, 2005, 09:55:37 AM: She is truly lovely. We are very envious, especially Emily who has her heart set on another cocker girlie called, you guessed it...Daisy!

Enjoy :D !

Sue and Tilly
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on September 01, 2005, 10:30:54 AM: I'm soooo excited, I cant wait.
I'm bouncing of the walls now!! :lol:
Title: What Colour
Post by: taliska on September 01, 2005, 11:23:42 PM: I know you've set your heart on daisy but I showed the pics to a friend of mine, and she said oh she looks like a galaxy choc bar, which i thought was quite good as a name, then she said or even areo as she choclatey with bubbles!!! :P
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on September 02, 2005, 09:20:31 AM: Daisy Dumpling! cos she's pretty and cuddly!
Title: What Colour
Post by: Elisa on September 02, 2005, 11:23:52 AM: blimey she's beautiful!

I think Daisy suits her prefectly :D
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on September 04, 2005, 08:20:55 PM: Hi all,
just to update you all, we were right in saying that these puppies are sable. Pam said so.
so Karen will have a very unique little girl.
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: What Colour
Post by: suzysu on September 04, 2005, 08:24:47 PM: WOW ... congratulations Karen ;) xxxx
Title: What Colour
Post by: Magic Star on September 04, 2005, 11:02:48 PM: :o Karen, I turn my back for a week and your off buying a puppy!! :lol: She is absolutely gorgeous Karen, your very lucky indeed, looking forward to seeing how/if her colour changes as she gets older :D

Congratulations on your new special little Daisy :wub:
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on September 05, 2005, 02:38:37 AM: Yep! However her colour may change, she is essentially sable and should be registered as sable.
In fact Pam has bought one of the other girlies in the litter! and she also said if we ever come to breed with her, we can, if we want, use one of her sable dogs, which everyone tells me is unheard of! :D

I saw her two sable puppies at the show at Stoneleigh yesterday, and though Daisy doesnt look a lot like them, she has sable going on.
She is gorgeous, and we have her here with us now. She was hand reared and isnt dependent on mum, so the vet said the litter would be ok to be rehomed now. So, you know me, I couldnt wait!! :rolleyes:
Emma, yes, sorry, you cant turn your back for a second!! :lol:
Title: What Colour
Post by: Jane S on September 05, 2005, 09:38:04 AM: Have fun Karen & will look forward to seeing photos of Daisy as she matures to see how the colour changes. Must admit I wouldn't let such young pups go to their new homes yet even if handreared as they learn so much from interacting with their litter mates at this age but at least you are an experienced owner & have other dogs for your pup to practice her doggy skills on :D

Jane
Title: What Colour
Post by: Penel on September 05, 2005, 10:16:00 AM: Why were they handreared - what happened to Mum ?
Title: What Colour
Post by: Cayley on September 05, 2005, 01:32:24 PM: There's a lady registered on here a while back from europe with sables, anyone else remember her?
I am positive she had a website with pictures of sable puppies on :) .
Title: What Colour
Post by: Cob-Web on September 05, 2005, 01:36:19 PM: Quote
There's a lady registered on here a while back from europe with sables, anyone else remember her?
I am positive she had a website with pictures of sable puppies on :) .
[snapback]144284[/snapback]

I thought so too Cayley; I seem to remember looking at some gorgeous pictures of her dogs on her website - I think she lives in Scandanavia?
Title: What Colour
Post by: Cayley on September 05, 2005, 01:41:18 PM: I've had a look back through the introductions page and found her website if anyone wants me to put it on here?
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on September 05, 2005, 02:31:48 PM: Quote
Why were they handreared - what happened to Mum ?
[snapback]144245[/snapback]

Lots of complications, ecampsia and a twit of a vet who spayed her while checking to see if any pups were left inside. Her milk dried up within a week, so they were hand reared.
Title: What Colour
Post by: Honey 21 on September 09, 2005, 10:30:12 PM: Hi Karen

I bought a puppy from the same breeder from her first litter of pups in december 2004, i bought a bitch and named her HONEY she is beautiful with loads of character, she is a mummys girl and you are going to have so much fun and laughter with Daisy.

Sara named Honey, Daisy originaly and i changed her name to Honey so its fate you should have Daisy as her name.

Honey is golden with a white fleck on her nose and is 11 months now and has been in our local paper already.

dont know how to put pics on here or i would show you her

Daisy looks very VERY beautiful.
have fun
Sarah
x :D
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on September 09, 2005, 11:44:41 PM: Hi sarah, :D
I have a puppy from her first litter, her name is Lotte and she is just like her mum. :) Sarah has told us all about Honey and well done for being inthe paper. :D
Title: What Colour
Post by: saraht on September 10, 2005, 05:51:09 PM: hi its sarah these are my pups i am very excited that i have produced sables, overwhelmed by the response both positive and negative.we can't wait to see what the coats eventually turn out like. i have found some lovely homes for my pups.thankyou for all your interest.
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on September 10, 2005, 11:19:36 PM: Hello Sarah, Honey's mum, lovely to hear from you. Her name was going to be Daisy all along, dont know why.
I know we are going to have fun with her, she is a little whirlwind of mishchief!

Hello Sarah T, nice to see you here too. You will both find a wealth of information and advice.

Cleo, Daisy's nan, has really taken her under her wing, letting her swing off her ears and chops, and clamber all over her, it's like she knows she is family!
Title: What Colour
Post by: Ingrid from Sweden on September 11, 2005, 11:31:11 AM: Quote
Quote
There's a lady registered on here a while back from europe with sables, anyone else remember her?
I am positive she had a website with pictures of sable puppies on :) .
[snapback]144284[/snapback]

I thought so too Cayley; I seem to remember looking at some gorgeous pictures of her dogs on her website - I think she lives in Scandanavia?
[snapback]144285[/snapback]

Can it be me your'e looking for? My name is Ingrid lives in Sweden with a bunch of sables. Haven't been here for a while...

You can see a lot of sable at my home page http://www.mightyfalls.com (http://www.mightyfalls.com)

~Ingrid and the sables in Sweden
Title: What Colour
Post by: Ingrid from Sweden on September 11, 2005, 11:38:15 AM: Quote
Anyway, this is my new little Daisy. Collecting her end of next week!!!!
I just cant wait!!!!!!!!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/karen1967/P8280009.jpg)
[snapback]143714[/snapback]

Looking at this picture I would say it is not sable, this is what I would call "tiger striping" also seen in a litter in Poland two years ago. Those pups turned black when they get older.
Title: What Colour
Post by: Ingrid from Sweden on September 11, 2005, 11:58:56 AM: Hi all,

I have been looking through all posts, and it is hard to say when the pups are so small and not exactly looks like sables. The first pic some of them look like sable in the face, the second one of Daisy don't look like sable.

I have no problem telling if my new born pups are sable or not. If one look on the belly new born sables have red coat on the belly and if they were black & tans they would have been just black. They also have the typical mask in the face.

Here is some pics of a new born sable "Mighty Fall's Heaven Can Wait" for those who are interested http://www.mightyfalls.com/ehonungnyfodd.htm (http://www.mightyfalls.com/ehonungnyfodd.htm)

When sable grow up they change colour up to 1 year of age. When they get around 8 months sables get grey coat on the head.

This link http://www.mightyfalls.com/evalparforeg.htm (http://www.mightyfalls.com/evalparforeg.htm) will get you a chance to see a sable grow from newborn to 8 weeks.

Below is a picture of a grown up sable coat, looking on the back. This is very typical, red under the black coat on the back.

(http://www.mightyfalls.com/hairsobel11.jpg)

This is a picture of a sable, 3 years of age

(http://www.mightyfalls.com/aladdinsum2005.jpg)

A stack picture of the same sable

(http://www.mightyfalls.com/2aladdinjuli2004.jpg)

A sable 8 months old

(http://www.mightyfalls.com/anastasia/annie8man6.jpg)

Hope this helps!!
Title: What Colour
Post by: Ingrid from Sweden on September 11, 2005, 12:10:19 PM: Quote
Hi all,
just to update you all, we were right in saying that these puppies are sable. Pam said so.
so Karen will have a very unique little girl.
:D :D :D :D :D :D
[snapback]144184[/snapback]

Will be very interesting to see if they are sable or not, but Pam should know as she has seen sables as small pups to adult. Pics I have seen of "tiger striped" looking like Daisy in Poland turned black as adults. The others having more red in the face I'm not sure about...

Pam owns a litter brother to my Aladdin shown above. Please keep us posted how the coat will change and we maybe will be able to learn something new.

As the first sable came from a mating with black & tan and white/orange everything colud be possible...even if we haven't seen it before.
Title: What Colour
Post by: Ingrid from Sweden on September 11, 2005, 12:23:23 PM: Me again :rolleyes:

This is the other litter of sables (and three black) I had, they are 5 months of age to day. All the white dots are gone and they do look just like sable and blacks...

http://www.mightyfalls.com/evalparaktuell.htm (http://www.mightyfalls.com/evalparaktuell.htm)
Title: What Colour
Post by: Elisa on September 11, 2005, 12:23:58 PM: Ingrid - Ive just been looking through all you're photographs and your dogs are absolutely stunning :)
Title: What Colour
Post by: flossysmum on September 11, 2005, 12:32:10 PM: They look absolutely georgous ingrid :wub:
Title: What Colour
Post by: Magic Star on September 11, 2005, 12:39:17 PM: :D Ingrid, what stunning dogs you have, just goregous :D
Title: What Colour
Post by: sarah25 on September 11, 2005, 01:32:11 PM: awww your dogs are lovely ingrid :wub:
Title: What Colour
Post by: lyn on September 11, 2005, 02:26:34 PM: hi ingrid
your dogs are stunning they are absolute beauties i am lost for words you are very lucky :)
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on September 11, 2005, 05:25:48 PM: Hi Ingrid, your dogs are so gorgeous.
Daisy isnt tiger striped, it looked it on the photo beacause her coat was wavy, but as she has grown her fur is red or tan with black at the ends, like your pic where you have parted the fur.
Her coat is starting to look very dark till you rub it the wrong way, she is sable, but doesnt have the typical tan on her face. Having said that, she seems to be developing silvery cheek patches.
It will be interesting to see how she turns out.
She was also Pam's 1st choice, but I'd already bagged her.
Title: What Colour
Post by: Emily on September 11, 2005, 06:40:32 PM: :D I saw one of the pups at the show today there sooooooo sweet!
Title: What Colour
Post by: Cayley on September 11, 2005, 08:32:23 PM: Hello Ingrid, yes it was you I was thinking of :) .
I thought sables had a gold head from birth, I also thought pups in the same litter as Daisy were something and tan because of the tan markings (not the full gold face). You learn something new everyday. I like seeing colour changes in cockers, will be interesting to see how Daisys colour changes.
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on September 11, 2005, 08:38:48 PM: Well,
I've been hving a real good look, each hair on her back is red or tan at the base near the skin, and is black at the tips, but the fur on her legs seems to be the reverse. Stranger and stranger!! She is a complete mystery, but gawwwwjuss!
Title: What Colour
Post by: Annette on September 11, 2005, 08:51:04 PM: Ingrid, your dogs are fabulous. I want a sable next!!!!

Daisy is beautiful, whatever technical colour she turns out to be! Just adore her and enjoy her for what she is (I know you are :P ).

We will need regular pics of the little darling though.
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on September 11, 2005, 10:15:56 PM: Hello Ingrid,
Its Amanda the lady who sent you the e-mail about this litter.I have seen Daisy at 5 weeks and again at 7 weeks and she has changed so much, I have never seen a big change in a dogs coat in such a short time.
I am glad that i have a pup from the first litter and she is a star. :D
I am sure that Karen will update the picture for us.
I love the little black girl Mina and the sable boy at the top of the puppy page, you do have gorgeous dogs :D
Title: What Colour
Post by: Ingrid from Sweden on September 12, 2005, 09:11:37 AM: Thanks all for your nice words about my dogs. They are all loved to bits and live with us as family members. All showed for many different judges and also used in obediance classes.

It will be very interesting to see pictures from this pups as they grow older. As I said before it maybe will learn us something new.

Genetics is a mysterium and looking at the pedigree one can't see any carrier of sable in the past but who can tell if the pedigree (any pedigree) i 100% true? None, can without genetic tests...

Cayley: Only Gold Sable have golden head from birth and a very light mask in face. Ordinary sables have black changing to grey as the grow.

There is also two types of sable. One with mask called "Sable with Tan" before 1994 and "Sable without Tan". See pics below. Nothing to do with tan point just used to describe the look of the face of the dog. Especially the black ridge in the dogs face.

(http://www.mightyfalls.com/sableutan.jpg)
Sable Without tan

(http://www.mightyfalls.com/sobeltan.jpg)
Sable with tan

This wordings are not in use any more all sable are register just as sables, well not blueroan sables :rolleyes:

~Ingrid
Title: What Colour
Post by: isla on September 12, 2005, 01:38:08 PM: Wow! Ingrid your dogs are beautiful I've never seen anything like them before.
Title: What Colour
Post by: mark smith on September 19, 2005, 12:03:37 PM: hi all i have one of these puppies they are sable although they dont look like the usual sable colour the colour sable is defined by the fact that the hair shaft is of two colours which these are they are blake on the ends and chocolate at the base thet have black noses which would be brown if they were chocolate coloured. As had been said they don't have any sable colours in thier pedigree but neither did the first sable sold to an americian as a black and tan it just appears in the genes.

Mark
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on September 19, 2005, 09:17:14 PM: :) Hi Mark i came with Sarah to the show to see you, hope your new little girl is doing well.
What is her name :)
Title: What Colour
Post by: mark smith on September 19, 2005, 11:20:47 PM: Quote
:) Hi Mark i came with Sarah to the show to see you, hope your new little girl is doing well.
What is her name :)
[snapback]146797[/snapback]
hi her name is shamu
Title: What Colour
Post by: Ingrid from Sweden on September 30, 2005, 07:22:05 AM: Quote
hi all i have one of these puppies they are sable although they dont look like the usual sable colour the colour sable is defined by the fact that the hair shaft is of two colours which these are they are blake on the ends and chocolate at the base thet have black noses which would be brown if they were chocolate coloured. As had been said they don't have any sable colours in thier pedigree but neither did the first sable sold to an americian as a black and tan it just appears in the genes.

Mark
[snapback]146668[/snapback]

Dear Mark,

I really don't understand what you mean with chocolate??

If it is a "ordinary" sable (looking like mine) it is red in the base and black on top of the back. If it is chocolate at the base they are liver sable.

~Ingrid
Title: What Colour
Post by: Ingrid from Sweden on September 30, 2005, 07:30:14 AM: Hi all,

As I just took two recent pictures of my grown up sables I thought I should post them here so you can have a look.

It is "Xarah" Xarah Sable Vom Eschenweg & "Aladdin" Neville Sable Man Vom Eschenweg on the top of the page. They are both shown in Sweden for many different judges. They love to work in obediance classes, agility and so on. I have them with me in the woods riding our horse.

http://www.mightyfalls.com/efoton34.htm (http://www.mightyfalls.com/efoton34.htm)

The other sable on the page is our "Annie" Zackrose's Annie-Sablesun, she is soon to be 2 years old and she is out of Swedish x Schweiz (Levana) lines.

~Ingrid
Title: What Colour
Post by: Gilly on September 30, 2005, 07:35:19 AM: Beautiful Ingrid ;) looks a different colour than Daisy though.
Title: What Colour
Post by: kookie on September 30, 2005, 09:41:14 AM: Well, I dont know what colour she technically is, she is registered as sable, and the kennel club have apparently been on to Pam Walker regarding this litter. The KC have accepted the registration, so we will have to see how they all turn out.
She is my little adorable (most of the time) bundle of mischeif and I love her nomatter what she turns out to be. She is Alfie's new best friend and the 2 are inseparable.
Mark, it would be interesting to see some pics of your pup here.
Title: What Colour
Post by: flozac on October 06, 2005, 12:18:04 AM: this might be my 2nd post on this topic i don't know if i posted the last one. However karen i don't know what colour Daisy is but she is gorgous. So does it really matter.

Ingrid , I have looked at your website and your dogs are just stunning. Keep up the good work
Title: What Colour
Post by: Phaedra on October 07, 2005, 08:46:34 PM: Concerning the inheritance and genetics of the sable colour:

I have been puzzled by the inheritance of this pattern for some time and did not find answers enough when I searched the Internet. Therefore, I made a 'study' of all litters in Sweden with either:

* At least one sable parent

or

* At least one sable pup, no matter the colour of the parents.

At this time (April), there were about 20 litters in Sweden that matched my criteria. There was only one litter with non-sable parents. This was a litter by a blue roan male out of a black bitch - with a sable father. This combination had thrown 'blue roan sables'.

Litters out of sable + red only threw sable or red.

Some litters did not have any sable pups at all. I checked the parentage of the parents and realised that in all cases there was a chance that the non-sable paret was homozygotus for black. Both grandparent on this side was 'black' - E on that locus (blue roan, black, liver etc).

There were very few cases with sable lines on both sides of the pedigree. Which means that sable has to be a dominant trate. All the sables in Sweden cannot be black & tans, blue roans & tans or tricolour with 'too much red (not that I ever believed that, but you got to check it up).

My conclusion was:

Sable is a dominant gene, that is only visible on a red-based dog (genotyp ee: red, golden, orange roan or red/white). The sable gene causes the black pigment to spread partly over the body of the dog. The gene can be carried by black-based dogs (genotype Ee or EE), but is not visible since the entire body is - black.

Still, the gene is dominant. Which means: that blacks/b&t/blue roans/livers etc out of sable parentage can throw sable IF they, apart from the sable gene, also carry red (e) and are mated to a red-based dog or a dog that carries red.

'Blue roan sable' is misleading. Ok, these dogs LOOK like blue roans, but genetically they have ee on that locus. They will not throw black-based dogs with non black-based dogs. 'Orange roan sable* would be more correct and why not sable roan*

The chocolate sable or liver sable should be a dog with 'golden' base colour - eebb.

Yep!

Anneli
Title: What Colour
Post by: AmandaA on October 07, 2005, 11:13:50 PM: :) Thanks for that info Anneli.
I am trying to get into the genetic and colours of dogs {not to try to breed sable}
just i find it all very interesting.
Title: What Colour
Post by: mark smith on October 17, 2005, 10:19:51 PM: Quote
Quote
hi all i have one of these puppies they are sable although they dont look like the usual sable colour the colour sable is defined by the fact that the hair shaft is of two colours which these are they are blake on the ends and chocolate at the base thet have black noses which would be brown if they were chocolate coloured. As had been said they don't have any sable colours in thier pedigree but neither did the first sable sold to an americian as a black and tan it just appears in the genes.

Mark
[snapback]146668[/snapback]

Dear Mark,

I really don't understand what you mean with chocolate??

If it is a "ordinary" sable (looking like mine) it is red in the base and black on top of the back. If it is chocolate at the base they are liver sable.

~Ingrid
[snapback]149050[/snapback]
hi ingrid sorry its taken me so long to get back i would agree that they are chocolate sable or liver as you call it
Title: What Colour
Post by: mark smith on October 17, 2005, 10:24:21 PM: Quote
Concerning the inheritance and genetics of the sable colour:

I have been puzzled by the inheritance of this pattern for some time and did not find answers enough when I searched the Internet. Therefore, I made a 'study' of all litters in Sweden with either:

* At least one sable parent

or

* At least one sable pup, no matter the colour of the parents.

................................
Anneli
[snapback]150652[/snapback]
hi anneli
what colour would you say these dogs are they are chocolate at the base and black on the ends
most of thier pedigree is black and tan and they have some parti colour breeding in them
mark
Title: What Colour
Post by: Phaedra on October 19, 2005, 08:57:30 PM: To be sable, they must have some sable lineage. Most of it is traceable. Of course, there is a possibility that there are sable lines that have been hidden under black/blue etc for generations. But....? Well, I do believe that we know most of the lines. It is not likely that sable genes are hidden for generation.

Concerining the puppie - I think they are black and tans, mabye some of them have chocolate genes? Sometimes this can add a more rusty shade to a black coat.

But - Time Will Tell!

Anneli
Title: What Colour
Post by: lyn on October 20, 2005, 12:44:26 AM: i have a black and tan puppy and he doesn't look anything like these.he does have a choccy brown tinge to his coat but its the puppy fluff(so i have been told)and it's def not half and half like these puppies.i can't wait to see more piccies of them i think they are gorgeous :)
Title: What Colour
Post by: mark smith on October 22, 2005, 10:42:00 PM: Quote
To be sable, they must have some sable lineage. Most of it is traceable. Of course, there is a possibility that there are sable lines that have been hidden under black/blue etc for generations. But....? Well, I do believe that we know most of the lines. It is not likely that sable genes are hidden for generation.

Concerining the puppie - I think they are black and tans, mabye some of them have chocolate genes? Sometimes this can add a more rusty shade to a black coat.

But - Time Will Tell!

Anneli
[snapback]153176[/snapback]
nice to hear your views only i dont believe its as simple as having to have a sable gene as the very first sable cocker never had those genes if these were black and tan with chocolate in them why is the hair shaft both black and chocolate? also the pedigree is mostley black and tan and as we know black is the dominante gene and chocolate is recessive which is not in thier lines
Title: What Colour
Post by: Black Angel's on November 13, 2005, 09:32:54 PM: Daisy is beautiful,what a color :rolleyes: ! I have never seen this color,very interesting! Kookie,do you have some new pictures of Daisy?

Iva
Title: What Colour
Post by: Black Angel's on November 13, 2005, 09:49:16 PM: I saw in galery new pics,she is georgeus!