CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Tidge on September 19, 2004, 07:27:17 PM
-
I have had a few enquiries to go onto my puppy waiting list from parts of the country that will require a 4-5 hour drive both ways and I'm not sure if I would be doing the pup an injustice by allowing it to travel so far at 8-9 weeks of age.
Do other breeder draw a line at the travelling distances?? And what advice should I give to any travelling new owners, should I recommend an overnight stay or should I advise them to bring food etc and arrange a stop half way and make sure they call me to make sure they've allowed the pup a pit stop, or should I recommend they locate a pup nearer to them?? Any help would be much appreciated.
:rolleyes: :(
-
When we picked up Taliska we had a 2 hour drive both ways, so on the way to collect him we checked out suitable stopping off points, for him and us. This allowed us all to have a drink and restbite. Next weekend we are due to collect our second cocker, again its a 2 hour trip both ways, so we have done the same again.
It may not work for everyone but it sure worked for us, no little accidents for pup or us. As long as people are sensible about it, and don't expect the their pups to do the whole journey in one go, they should be fine. They must make sure that when they stop, the pup is on a collar and lead or well away from the road, as we do know of a case of a pup not making it home...
-
We travelled for 3 and half hours to get Alfie and we couldn`t stop as the rain was lashing down but we had him on loads of towels and offered him water in the car,but i think 4 hrs maxium drive to get home, more than that i think i personally i would`nt be happy with bearing in mind most of these journeys are on motorway and unless early in the morning goodness knows you know how the traffic can build up if theres an accident.on the way back from our holiday we saw 10 miles of solid traffic going(or not really) the other way.but i`m not a breeder i`m sure it`s probably a personal choice
-
I travelled 2 1/2 hours by car and then 1 hour on the plane with Morgan. With Cooper he spent 6 hours in the car and then 3 hours on the ferry. Both Eric and I went for him and had loads of stops - though most of the stops we had to wake him to make him go to the toilet and take a drink :rolleyes: . He basically slept the whole way and I think it would have been more unsettling for him to have had him in a hotel for a night and than cart him off to another new place the next day.
I suppose you have to look at it on a case by case basis and I can understand your concern, but if someone had suggested to me that I should look closer to home for a pup my options would have been very limited - border collie or border collie (nothing wrong with them, they're just not the right breed for me :) ) Potential owners are always told that they may have to be willing to travel for the right dog - surely as long as they make sensible arrangement distance shouldn't be a problem - it may even indicate that taking on a pup is not just a whim. I know that if I wasn't absolutely sure that I was doing the right thing in getting my boys I wouldn't have spent £150 on a plane ticket to go and get Morgan and the same for the car on the ferry to go and collect Cooper :) ;) .
-
It's not uncommon for people to travel significant distances for the right pup.
I don't think the length of the journey matters - more how they're going to handle the journey. Make sure they're well prepared and know not to put puppy on the ground - ie they should have pleanty of newspaper with them so they can stop to let him/her have a wee etc.
hth
-
I agree - distance should be no real object when collecting a puppy, provided the new owner makes sensible travel arrangements. However, when would-be puppy buyers are a long away from a breeder, it becomes even more important that the breeder vets them carefully & if necessary asks for references or perhaps a fellow breeder who lives near by could check them out. Unfortunately, anyone can say what they like in an email & give the impression of being able to provide the perfect home when in reality this could be far from the truth. Talk to enquirers by phone several times & if possible, get them to visit beforehand (even if they do live a long distance away) This will give you a far better idea of what people are really like before you make the decision of whether to trust them with one of your precious babies. Sorry, if you are already doing this but it doesn't do any harm to remind newer breeders to be on their guard.
Jane
-
If people tell you that they don't work full-time, do breeders phone prospective owners during the day to see if they are in ? or is that a bit sneaky :o :lol:
-
Gilly Posted on Sep 20 2004, 12:15 PM
If people tell you that they don't work full-time, do breeders phone prospective owners during the day to see if they are in ? or is that a bit sneaky
I dont think so. My breeder although wasnt that far away, rung at different times of the day. And also when I took on a part time job just before I was due to collect Alfie,she questioned me about it (hours Id be working, what arangements Id made for puppy care eyc). I wasn't in the least bit offended and in a way it strengthened my confidence in her :)
-
I fully appreciate that breeders want their pups to go to the right homes, but can I make a plea from prospective puppy owners?
Please can any 'vetting' be done sensitively; home visits, questionnaires, telephone calls etc that some breeders use are very intimidating and rather off putting.
'Whats wrong with that' I hear you cry; nothing, BUT, it does drive some prosective owners to buy from a puppy farm or pet shop where they are not subject to the same experience.
I have spoken to several new puppy owners who have bought from farms, and they have said that they looked at more reputable breeder but felt that they would never measure up to the exacting demands of the breeder - and why did they breed in the first place? I personally chose not to engage with a breeder who insisted on a questionnaire completed before they would even talk to me about puppies and cockers.
I know this must be really, really tough if you are a breeder, and I don't think I could ever do it as I wouldn't want any of them to go to new homes; but just to let you know that too much vetting can perpetuate the farming of puppies....sorry!
-
Sorry Rachel I COMPLETELY disagree strongly with you there ;)
I would be wondering WHY? I wasn't being asked such questions to be honest with you and respectable breeders only want to find the right homes for their puppies :) Anyone who takes breeders questions as an insult and goes to a puppy farm on that basis must be out of their mind.
I agree that no breeder should discriminate against peoples situations (ie work) if thats what your referring to, but I do feel that someone who works full time should be able to provide details that the puppy will not be left alone for 8 hours solid a day and I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with asking prospective owners to do that :) It really answers some of the responses on another thread, about breeders just breeding for money doesn't it? Obviously NOT if finding the right home is MORE important.
And I think people will agree that they would begin to wonder they are NOT being asked such questions.
-
I have to agree with Gilly on this one too! I think its the breeders responsibility to ensure that the pups are going to loving homes, where they will not be left for a considerable amount of time. Yes, I think its plain to say that most people will either work full time or part time, the breeder has the right to question what provisions are in place for the puppy, during this time :)
My breeder was just a pet breeder, although she was very concerned about where her pups would end up, she was very thorough and I wholly respect her for that. It did not make me think, "hey this is too long-winded lets go to a puppy farm" it made me think, gosh this lady really cares about these little pups, which can only mean, that she has give the pups the best start in life :)
I think the people you mentioned in your post Rachael, are just perhaps impatient people and act on the spare of the moment, I wonder how many of these people will keep their pups, when the chewing, the nipping and the teenage period starts :unsure: Another words, have these people thought through what is involved in taking on a dog? as I doubt the puppy farm will have pointed out the bad parts, as the responsible breeders do and should in my opinion :)
-
but just to let you know that too much vetting can perpetuate the farming of puppies....sorry!
I think people buy from pet shops because they want a dog and they want one now!
I know a few people that have bought from such places and believe me I tried to pursuade them not to, but they just wanted to go and come home with a dog.
I also think people that buy from these places don't do there homework , therefore they think it terribly hard to find a reputable breeder, therefore they take the chance.
When I bought Molly, the breeder asked me a lot of question, about my family, if I worked, what sort of house I had, did I know about the breed,etc.. I felt really happy being asked alsorts of question, because it made me feel like I was buying something precious of her, something she cared about.
And thankfully Molly has turned out to be a credit to this lady, something I will always be thankful to her for, she really is a little darling.
Evie's breeder on the other hand asked me nothing about my circumstances. I'm not going to start calling this woman, but it was obvious that Molly's breeder and Evie's were not breeding for the same reason. :( But I have a beautiful dog in Evie and wouldn't swap her for the world
The lady I'm buying my ragdoll from asked me a lot of question, invited me to see her and her cats, told me not to make a decision but to think about it . I felt glad that she was concerened where her baby was going . I know I will be able to ask her advice if needed ;)
I'm sorry Rachel but I don't agree with your reasoning!
-
I have to agree with Gill here. I've never bred (dogs that is :lol: ) and don't intend to, but I'm sure if I did I'd be grilling potential owners within an inch of their sanity :lol: . Imagine letting a puppy go only to find out later that it was being treated badly, or used in puppy farms :( . Doesn't bear thinking about. I know that you cannot ever be 100% sure that people are being honest, but at least you would know that you did your best. In saying that, I don't believe people should be dismissed because they work or live in a flat etc. as long as they can provide a healthy, happy life for the pup.
As for travelling, I think that if anyone is prepared to drive a huge distance for their puppy, it shows to some degree that they are serious about owning a dog. I'm sure if the breeder gives lots of information about the return journey ie. how many stops to make etc. then there should be little issue.
-
Hmmm, I must admit I can see both sides of the story on this one.
If I was a breeder I'd be really strict over who got a pup from me..... I wouldn't rule out using private detectives. :D
However as a prospective owner I did find it really difficult phoning round the breeders, Jimmy's breeder was particularly difficult to pin down. She had me screaming with frustration , I really couldn't figure out how to convince her to let me have one of her pups. Maybe I'd said something really stupid to her, maybe she was just suspicious of me.... who knows. I spent hours ringing round breeders before getting Jimmy, most were pleasant and helpful a few were downright rude and offensive. I don't think I'm stupid, but remember it got to the point when I just wished there was a pet shop around the corner with a Cocker Spaniel waiting for me. :o Of course I now know this to be completely wrong but can sympathise how some people will just give up with reputable breeders if they feel they are being abused unecessarily.
It's a difficult one. :unsure:
-
I think what we need to remember is that a good breeder can CHOOSE where her puppie's go to, they are not desparate to get rid of them, they know that they will be sold, they want them to go to the best home possible.
Sometimes they might sound a little sharp on the telephone, but they are very busy, they might have a job aswell. At the end of the day getting the right puppy is what matters and if it means putting up with a few off words so be it!
I know what I would rather! ;)
ps Molly's breeder was always lovely when I rang for advice.
-
I have never experienced any problems with would-be buyers resenting being questioned & vetted - most see it as a good sign that they have contacted a caring, reputable breeder! It seems breeders cannot win sometimes - if they act responsibly & check out their would-be buyers thoroughly, then they are accused of sending people into the arms of the puppy farmers & pet shops (who ask no questions at all of course!). No sensible puppy buyer should resent a breeder taking the time & trouble to check that they can offer a suitable home for one of their puppies & if I ever did come across an enquiry from someone who didn't like being vetted, then that enquiry would get no further with me. I don't personally use questionnaires but can well understand why other breeders do (they are almost universal in countries like the US) as it helps them to get the relevant information they need (taking into account the sheer volume of enquiries many breeders get, particularly those with websites).
Jane
-
Yes I agree, it would interesting to find out! ;)
-
Sorry Lizzy...I deleted my post as I didn't want to cause upset.
But I'll put it back on anyway :huh:
I said it would be interesting to see the statistics on rehomes, as I feel that the majority of them may come from full-time workers who have not had crucial time with the puppy and therefore puppies grow into dogs that are destructiv, struggle with toilet training etc :huh:
Gilly
-
Sorry Rachel I COMPLETELY disagree strongly with you there ;)
I would be wondering WHY? I wasn't being asked such questions to be honest with you and respectable breeders only want to find the right homes for their puppies :) Anyone who takes breeders questions as an insult and goes to a puppy farm on that basis must be out of their mind.
I expected to be grilled too, and would have been suspicious of the breeders motives if I hadn't.
-
Colin Posted on Sep 20 2004, 01:51 PM
However as a prospective owner I did find it really difficult phoning round the breeders, Jimmy's breeder was particularly difficult to pin down. She had me screaming with frustration , I really couldn't figure out how to convince her to let me have one of her pups. Maybe I'd said something really stupid to her, maybe she was just suspicious of me.... who knows. I spent hours ringing round breeders before getting Jimmy, most were pleasant and helpful a few were downright rude and offensive. I don't think I'm stupid, but remember it got to the point when I just wished there was a pet shop around the corner with a Cocker Spaniel waiting for me.
I remember thinking the same when I was looking this time. But having been down the puppy farm line (not knowing any better) with my last pup I was prepared to hold out till I got there.
And trying to find a breeder was difficult. It wasnt untill I I chatted for a long time (two hours) with a woman from cocker rescue (I guess an informal interview) that she finally passed on a few names and numbers.
I know my breeder only goes with personal recomendations. She loves her dogs and thier pups and honestly cried when she handed me Alfie. She never advertises and she never needs to. In fact the last litters were all "booked" long before and we only got Alfie as someone changed their mind and decided to wait till next years litter.
I think its a two way street with the interviewing. I want to know that the breeder has only the welfare of their pups at heart. I want to know that the breeder knows what they are doing and that the breeder will be there for me if any further advice or help is required. But I only know all this now because of past mistakes. I can really understand why new dog owners are put off and go to a shop. Hopefully with more education and easier access to that information, more and more people will take the time to go through the process rather then taking the easy (for them) route
-
Thanks for all that, we seem to have opened a can of spagetti here.
I always send a questionnaire to potential owners, and to be honest, if it is likely to put a potential owner off, then I would rather they didn't have one of my pups, because filling out a few questions is not as bad as when you have a puppy chewing up your furniture and pooing everywhere. My questionnaire are intending to sort out the serious thinkers from the passers by.
I use the answers in the questionnaire to my advantage, for example, one question is 'Have you every house trained a dog before?' this then gives me an indication that I will need to cover this subject thoroughly and offer support to the new owner that I might not have to give to an experienced dog owner.
I totally agree with Gilly, I have had calls from people asking if I have pups available, when I answer no but you can complete a questionnaire and can be consider for joining my waiting list for my litter due shortly, they say they are not interested in joining a waiting list and want a puppy straight away, I always try to tactfully point out the error of this way of thinking, but also heave a sigh of relief that one of my precious pups won't be going to them, because guaranteed that pup will end up with the RSPCA.
The people on my waiting list contact me regularly for updates and provide information about themselves, to reassure me that they are willing to provide good homes for my pups, so by the time the pups are born, we've built up quite a relationship. But I do understand that too many questions can be off putting and we should be concentrating or 'outing' puppy farming and promote good breeding.
-
I am totally in favour of vetting - the more stringent the better I think ;)
As a full time worker, I want to prove that I can provide a suitable home for a puppy for the next 13-odd years. I am more than happy to explain what my routine is - I'd be very worried if the breeder knew I worked full time and just gave me the puppy without any further questioning :unsure: I am happy to answer any questions whatsoever about my lifestyle, my dogs, whatever they feel they need to know. After all, put yourself in their shoes - they have reared these pups for the past 8 weeks and they need to make as sure as they possibly can that their 'babies' are going to a suitable home where they will be loved and cherished. When I have discussed my working situation with breeders, I always volunteer a reference from my boss - either in writing and/or on the phone. He can then confirm that I have the time off for settling the pup in like I said I did, that I can take the dog into work when the vaccination program is complete like I said I can, and that if the dog doesn't come into work with me for whatever reason, he can confirm that I can pop home every 60-90 mins for toilet breaks and quick play sessions like I say I can. No-one has deemed that necessary( I must have an honest looking face ;) ) but i always leave them my works phone number regardless ;) I would also be willing to provide written statements from people who know me and my dogs such as their training instructors for example.
I think its a small price to pay for a puppy from a reputable breeder.
-
I never met Morgan's breeder until I went to pick up my pup. I had been in telephone contact with him for about a month before the pups were born and I wasn't told for definate whether I could have a pup or not until they were around 3 weeks old. It's not cheap to get off this island and If I'd had to make two trips down there within a few weeks of each other it would cost me about £400 in travel :blink: I asked a lot of questions though and pestered him constantly so he knew I was serious about it. At the time I was, and had been, working as a supply teacher (days here and there) for 4 years with no sign of a full time job but by the October I was given a contract :rolleyes: . Morgan was a 6 months old and adapted fine to me leaving him for 3 hours in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. They get a good walk in the morning, a run round the croft - chasing a ball (did my back in, throwing the dash thing!!! :angry: ) at lunchtime and then out for a longer walk when I finish work.
I didn't mind being asked loads of questions over the phone and by e-mail. I wouldn't have had anyone to get a reference from though, as there are no breeders that I know of here and the vet didn't know me until I started going with Morgan so not sure I'd pass the test of a lot of breeders. Luckily with Cooper we had a reference from Morgan's breeder so it was a bit easier to get him.
It must be a nightmare vetting people who want a pup but there has to be a degree of trust - at the end of the day, there's no way of checking whether the potential puppy owner is telling you 100% truth - suppose you have to be a very good judge of character!! :)
Out of interest - a question for breeders - how many of your puppy buyers stay in touch after they take the pup home???
-
Oops, I never meant to take the lid of this can of 'spaghetti'!
Please can any 'vetting' be done sensitively; home visits, questionnaires, telephone calls etc that some breeders use are very intimidating and rather off putting.
Just to reiterate, I was not advocating not vetting prospective homes, just consideration to the way it was done.
For instance Tidge, although 'Have you ever housetrained a dog before?' may sound totally innocuous to you, and does indeed help you support new owners effectively, to a prospective owner it is quite undermining:
'OMG, what if I say no, does that mean I'm not allowed a puppy, will she only let them go to experienced homes, it must be far more difficult than I think, how will I ever convince her that I am capable as I have no experience....' and before you know it the prospective owner, who may have done loads of research and reading and talking to other owners, has worked him/herself into a tizzy and gives up on your questionnaire completely.
Lizzy, I am afraid that if a breeder was sharp with me on the phone, it would suggest that they would not have the time for me once I was an owner of their pup, and be unable to support me if I need it......so they would be crossed off my list straight way. If they are too busy to talk to me, then how can they dedicate the time they need to a litter and new owners?
Gilly, no offence taken by me regarding your comments about full time workers, although having worked in rescue centre, my experiences lead me to suspect you might be surprised by the results.
The dogs in my area who are left to wander, who have behaviour problems or who never go to classes are not from working households but rather households where there are many people around all day, but no-one has the desire to dedicate their time to the dog.
I was discussing this thread with OH, and he asked a question I couldn't answer; "If breeders find it so difficult to give up their pups, and expend so much energy seeking suitable homes, why do they breed at all?"
I couldn't give him an answer, can anyone who does breed help me out?
-
Rachel,
Maybe the word sharp should have been replaced with brusque. I certainly would not be offended by a breeder who was just that. They may have a dozen enquiries throughout the day, timewasters maybe, you cannot expect them to come on the phone all sweetness and light on every occasion.
If after speaking with a breeder and letting her know that my intentions were serious and she was still abrupt then I would consider looking elsewhere, but what you actually find is someone very helpful and warm, given the chance.
-
I was discussing this thread with OH, and he asked a question I couldn't answer; "If breeders find it so difficult to give up their pups, and expend so much energy seeking suitable homes, why do they breed at all?"
I couldn't give him an answer, can anyone who does breed help me out?
I don't breed, and doubt I ever will, I couldn't let the pups go and i'm no way experienced enough to ever encounter such a massive commitment :blink:
But I would say, if there weren't breeders I wouldn't have my Indiepops and you wouldn't have your Molo :)
-
Have you asked your Breeder the same question?
By some of your posts and comments and after working in a rescue centre you sound slightly anti-breeder to me? which makes me wonder why you bought from a breeder in the first place?
You went to a breeder I presume because you wanted a good specimen of the breed, and someone who you knew had carried out relevant health tests, someone who cares about the breed and someone who is an advocate of the breed, someone who will give you aftersales advice.
I'm sorry I can't seem to get on the same level as your reasoning I'm afraid. I haven't come across anyone who had been remotely sharp or rude on the phone, that doesn't mean to say those people don't exist, but i really do think they are few and far between ;) Most breeders are caring loving owners with only the best interest of the breed at heart. I really am unsure of what your point really is to be perfectly honest :)
-
Hi again,
Why do we breed at all?
Good question, because we love our dogs so much and it would be selfish not to!!!!
My question regarding housetraining normally instigates conversation about the best methods/ways of house training, and without that question, there would always be the possibility of a pup going to an inexperienced home and an owner not knowing what to do next, whilst tripping over the next pile of pooh.
From the contact I've had so far, people are grateful for the opening of a question that they might not normally want to ask for the risk of sounding stupid, if I put the question in front of them, it makes it clear to them that I understand that some people need further advice.
It is unfortunate if a breeder has ever been sharp with you, but do consider that lack of sleep and the lack of energy that rearing a litter of pups leaves you with can make even the most docile of characters snappy. I would normally consider this a good point, they must be so busy looking after their dogs that you are meerly interrupting time with their dogs:-) ;)
At the end of the day, there are good owners and bad owners, good breeders and bad breeders and I will always ask as many questions as I feel necessary to make sure pups go to a good home as well as being prepared to answer questions that potential new owners may ask. Also to most reputable breeders, breeding is considered a hobby, not a full time job(although it always is) and often in addition to running a family and jobs as well.
-
Gilly, no offence taken by me regarding your comments about full time workers, although having worked in rescue centre, my experiences lead me to suspect you might be surprised by the results.
If you worked for a reputable rescue who has the dogs' best interests at heart, you will know that such rescues have a more stringent rehoming policy than many breeders.
I foster and rehome cockers, and believe me, I want to know everything about you and home check you before you would get a foster of mine.
Having worked for a rescue, I can't understand why you would consider questions from good breeders too intrusive.
-
Gilly
Not at all anti-breeder, in fact just the opposite, I wish all pups were bred responsibly and breeders all these promoted their services widely so everyone was better informed, and puppy farmers/ shops were put out of business. IMO, some breeders, and some experienced owners, give the impression of being in an exclusive and slightly elite club, to which only the select few are allowed access. This prevents the message getting through, as those who will get most value from it are excluded from the club.
I also have reservations, as I have said before, about breeders who criticise all other breeds/colours/lines in favour of their own to prospective owners.
When I worked in rescue, anyone who walked through the door was treated with respect, given time, information and support, and if necesary gently councelled into the best decison for their circumstances. No-one was turned away, or handed a piece of paper as soon as they walked through the door.
Every home was vetted and checked, and questions were asked but in a manner that was not seen to challenge the people concerned. One of the first things I was taught was that unless the people who visited to rehome an animal understood why they may not be suitable then they would find an animal somewhere else - and it too would end up under our roof at some point. The adoptive family were as much our responsibilty as the adopted pet.
I DO NOT have an issue with the fact that homes are vetted, just the way in which some breeders carry this out - IMO to acheive the goal of preventing puppies being bought from farms, some breeders will need to become more accessible to a wider audience.
-
Having had one litter (not me personally)I would now always err on a cautionary side. We vetted prospective new homes. We turned so many people down, but we still made an error of judgement.We took this pup back and returned them their money. We still have him now. He needed vet treatment, and we feel so guilty.
If ever we did it again, we would be even more picky. :(
-
I was discussing this thread with OH, and he asked a question I couldn't answer; "If breeders find it so difficult to give up their pups, and expend so much energy seeking suitable homes, why do they breed at all?"
For me, finding the right homes for puppies is the very worst part of breeding although we have been very lucky & many of our puppy buyers become good friends & most keep in touch with us, even if it is just a note with a photo at Christmas time. We only breed with the intention of keeping a puppy ourselves to continue our line - we do this because we love the breed & enjoy our hobby of showing Cockers. If we were not seriously involved in the breed in this way, we would not breed as the many hours of worry & the hard work involved would not otherwise be worth it. As it is, there are often times when I do wonder whether it is all worth it :(
I have absolutely no wish to promote our "services" widely. As has been said before, most hobby breeders with a good reputation have no need to advertise & already receive an almost constant flow of enquiries. Such breeders will try to give guidance to people looking for a puppy & quite a few breeder websites now include advice on puppy farming & reputable breeding. Of course, breeders are human beings too with human character failings so some may not have good people skills & may even come across as brusque until they get to know someone. On the other side of the coin, enquirers can also be less than polite when contacting breeders - I've had phone calls late at night & more than a few emails from people wanting a puppy which come across as downright rude so it works both ways!
Jane
-
I homecheck and foster for rescues. I am always making decisions about the suitabitlity of owner's for dogs. I'm afraid I am very intrusive. I ask as much as I possibly can about people, their lifestyle, their home. I ask for all family members to be present. I take a dog to homechecks to see how the family (particularly children) react.
If I am homechecking for my own foster dog I am sometimes even more intense with prospective owners...I might have had that dog for weeks on end, I want to know it will be loved and cared for forever.
Therefore, I think if I bred puppies, I would be VERY careful about where they went. I've sadly learned through rescue that although most people are decent and well-meaning, lots of people are unprepared for puppies and can't cope, some people can do a good impression of a perfect home and turn out to be the opposite...I'm sure that most breeders feel that over time they start to "see through" people more...and they want to spend as much time as they can speaking to people who might be taking their precious pups away with them.
-
Every home was vetted and checked, and questions were asked but in a manner that was not seen to challenge the people concerned. One of the first things I was taught was that unless the people who visited to rehome an animal understood why they may not be suitable then they would find an animal somewhere else - and it too would end up under our roof at some point. The adoptive family were as much our responsibilty as the adopted pet.
Isn't this the exact reason vetting should be so thorough? I personally do not use a questionaire, I prefer to talk to people as I like to get a feel for them. It is quite surprising what a telephone chat can reveal ;) I go over quite a lot of information about the breed and the day to day care of a puppy during that initial phone call. I have covered issues that prospective owners have not considered which on occasion has lead to the enquirer deciding a young puppy is not for them, which they have been grateful for. If we decide an older dog may be more suitable I will try and locate one for them.
I am always polite and courteous even if my children are waiting for their dinner or the phone rings at 10.00pm! The same can not always be said about enquirers. I have had rude and aggresive people, even the odd one wanting a birthday present for their 5 year old child that weekend!
I also breed with the intention of keeping a puppy, my hobby is showing. I am confident that the puppies which I do not keep are good examples of the breed with excellent temprements that have been reared lovingly and carefully who will go on to bring their families many years of joy. This makes all the work worthwhile.
I have never had a problem with people objecting to my vetting procedure all are very willing and eager to provide what ever information I need, many have become firm friends and they know I am always there for them if they need me :)
Tracey.
-
I have read this with interest, and thought I would add here, that in my search for a cocker, be it rescue or a pup, I spoke to some wonderfull caring people, who happen to breed,and/or rescue and I think the issue is getting confused here... people can be stern, rude, abrupt in ANY walk of life, not just cos they happen to be breeders.
I did talk to one lady that was very rude, however I just put that down to her being a tad mental.. :lol: and brushed it off as I knew I would choose not to go to her for a puppy, it does work both ways, we as prospective parents have the right to choose them, and they have the right to choose us, we just hope they both happen at the same time ;) All the people I spoke to were extremely nice, and went out of their way to offer help and advice, even if they weren't expecting a litter.
Could any of you critiscising these people say you would offer the same courtesyand commitment to ..say a stranger up the road that took it upon themselves to ring you up and ask your advice on ..I dunno...gardening?? every once in a while?? even at 10pm??? I think not... ;)
edited to add... I didn't mind in the slightest any questions they had, I wouldn't have minded home visits, meeting my children, seeing how everyone interacts with dogs etc... I offered vet references and personal ones if so required, it really wouldn't have bothered me if they had wanted to ask me ANYTHING, afterall it is their choice, however I expected to ask them anythin in return.
-
I've said this before but I found everyone I spoke to was helpful and friendly but then I did phone at a decent hour and also ask if it was convenient for them to talk :)
I totally agree that they manner of some people looking for a pup is less than desireable. I find it quite strange to see posts where the prospective puppy owner asks breeders with a puppy available to ring them :D - any reputable breeder will not need to go searching message boards for someone to take their pups but a lot of people still think that a pup is just going to drop into their lap at the exact moment that they want it <_< ;) :)
I think that the majority of breeders do a fantastic job (I certainly couldn't do it as I'd have 101 cockers - i'd keep them all) and they should be given credit for this - like someone said before - if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have our little 'uns :D
-
JUst wanted to apologise to Tidge for hijacking your thread ;) although it's an interesting discussion isn't it ? :)
-
From my own experience, all but one of the breeders I rang were extremely helpful and infact I must have spent 45mins on the phone to one breeder who talked me through any concerns I had. She was a great help even though she did not even have any puppies for sale herself ;) I was more than grateful for all her advice and the contacts she then gave me.
On the other hand, there was one breeder who really upset me with her abruptness. The first question I was asked was 'Do I work and for how long?'. I answered maximum 4 hours a day. She replied that she would not even consider me as a prospective owner and her tone implied that she could not even believe I was considering getting a puppy :o End of conversation, she had put the phone down before I could say anymore. I was stunned, angry and upset :angry:
I had no chance to add that I would be taking the first 2 weeks off work to settle a puppy in, that I worked literally on the doorstep of home and that I could pop home at any time and finally that I would be changing my hours so that I only worked 3 hours a day.
However, this experience in no way would have made me veer towards a puppy farm. It did however make me more determined that I would find the right puppy and prove that I would be a good, loving and responsible owner ;)
As Jane said earlier though, it obviously can work both ways. I'm sure breeders could reel off many stories from downright rude enquirers too :rolleyes: There are bad apples in all walks of life I'm afraid.
-
I looked in the free ads for my puppy - phoned the breeder, was given directions, met, taken to their farm, chose a puppy, handed the money over, given papers, food and puppy pack - then left.
Went back to same breeder a few months later - told him i had got my last pup from him - took the last one that was there ( having a quite a few probs with her at the moment) and went home.
Not once was i asked any questions as to whether i worked or how suitable i may be, he didn't even question the fact that i had only recently bought one from him.
I had done my homework before having a puppy ( i have had dogs before but not from pups and not for a number of years ) had no doubt that i would have a cocker.
Its only now after finding this site ( invaluable to anyone with a puppy - cocker or otherwise ) that when i go to have another puppy ( or most probably a rescue )- and i will in a year or two if and only if i can sort probs out with the youngest - that i will not go down that route again.
I certainly wouldn't have minded being asked any questions - would have quite a few of my own for them now too.
I have bred snakes and always asked questions of any buyer and would not have handed them over if i did not think they were suitable - they were all given care sheets and my phone number!! And told that i would take any back if they changed their minds whether it was a 1 mth or 2yrs later that they no longer wanted them.
You only have to look on the free ads to see how many cocker are advertised for sale - not just from breeders but from owners who can no longer cope with them.
Would these owners be looking for new homes if they had been questioned thoroughly beforehand??
-
You only have to look on the free ads to see how many cocker are advertised for sale - not just from breeders but from owners who can no longer cope with them.
Would these owners be looking for new homes if they had been questioned thoroughly beforehand??
I think some owners really do think they can cope with a pup but in reality they realise how much work is involved and are totally unprepared for the additional hard work involved when they become teenagers (when the little blighters just throw out the rule book for a while).
Was speaking to new owners of a lovely terrier pup who'd had dogs before but years ago and there had been a gap in between dogs. They remarked how they'd forgotten how hard it was to rear a pup.
I also think that some people don't quite believe that such cute dogs could be such hooligans/strong-willed little beees(! substitute your onw word beginning with 'b' here LOL), and basically hard work at times. Everyone who meets my dogs will say how well behaved they are but what they don't know/see is how much work went into that and some people are just not out for the long haul but they believe that it must have been easy to do.
-
PennyB Posted on Sep 21 2004, 10:14 AM
I think some owners really do think they can cope with a pup but in reality they realise how much work is involved and are totally unprepared for the additional hard work involved when they become teenagers (when the little blighters just throw out the rule book for a while).
Im one of those owners. This is my second pup but in the 10 years between them I honestly forgot what hard work they are. Mind after a fortnight memories of saying Id never do it again came flooding back :)
And it was a struggle asking for help - especially from my breeder. Dont get me wrong - shes fantastic - but when I was going through the vetting procedure I had convinced myself I wouldnt pass,and that going back and asking for help had me thinking that she would think that she had made a mistake letting me have a pup :( So silly of me I know, but its something I still struggle with.
-
Every home was vetted and checked, and questions were asked but in a manner that was not seen to challenge the people concerned. One of the first things I was taught was that unless the people who visited to rehome an animal understood why they may not be suitable then they would find an animal somewhere else - and it too would end up under our roof at some point. The adoptive family were as much our responsibilty as the adopted pet.
Isn't this the exact reason vetting should be so thorough? I personally do not use a questionaire, I prefer to talk to people as I like to get a feel for them. It is quite surprising what a telephone chat can reveal ;) I go over quite a lot of information about the breed and the day to day care of a puppy during that initial phone call. I have covered issues that prospective owners have not considered which on occasion has lead to the enquirer deciding a young puppy is not for them, which they have been grateful for. If we decide an older dog may be more suitable I will try and locate one for them.
I am always polite and courteous even if my children are waiting for their dinner or the phone rings at 10.00pm! The same can not always be said about enquirers. I have had rude and aggresive people, even the odd one wanting a birthday present for their 5 year old child that weekend!
I also breed with the intention of keeping a puppy, my hobby is showing. I am confident that the puppies which I do not keep are good examples of the breed with excellent temprements that have been reared lovingly and carefully who will go on to bring their families many years of joy. This makes all the work worthwhile.
I have never had a problem with people objecting to my vetting procedure all are very willing and eager to provide what ever information I need, many have become firm friends and they know I am always there for them if they need me :)
Tracey.
Tracey was my first contact with a breeder and I found her brilliant, she talked with me on the phone for a while, a few times before we arranged to go and meet her babies, we were rudely late on arrival as we got totally lost on the outskirts of Birmingham :o and I can say all through this she was fantastic :) She gave us a huge insight into the breed and a lovely cuppa ;) :lol:
On our return from Traceys I had a severe allergic reaction to what I thought was down to the dogs, I was totally devastated :( To cut to the chase I researched into allergies to dogs and found that a bitch could be better for allergy sufferers :unsure: Tracey only had a boy left, I spoke with her to explain this and again she was fantastic with me, even though I had taken up so much of her time, only to not get one of her babies. I know you don't need vouching for Tracey, but I won't forget the kindness you showed hubbie and I, even after we got Indie when I was having problems with her not eating, it was Tracey, that helped me out!
Sorry to go off thread a bit, but felt I wanted to say that :)
-
Distance should be no object when you have decided on your puppy and more importantly found a Breeder that you respect and get along with.
I have been very lucky as when I collected Douglas he was brought down to where I was and so I didn't have to make a special journey to collect him but if need be I would go as far as Scotland for the right puppy. Although travelling from Guernsey to Scotland would take us nearly a week hahahahahaha
Over the years I have met up and made friends with quite a few of the Breeders/Exhibitors and can honestly say that the vast majority of them are a very friendly bunch with the welfare of their dogs/puppies coming before anything else.
-
We had a four hour journey home with Bailey, eight hour round trip! :rolleyes: We had a long chat with our breeder and was asked lots of questions but not directly, they were put to us in conversation and I didn't even realise the questions had been asked till I had put the phone down and recited the conversation back to hubby :lol:
-
Although travelling from Guernsey to Scotland would take us nearly a week hahahahahaha.
And a COL member would be there every part of the journey offering you beds to stay in and refreshements to keep you going ;) B) especially on the way back with a puppy in tow :lol: :wub:
-
Having gone about getting our first cocker in completely the wrong way (pet shop.. although was lucky with him, KC registered, vaccinated etc) because I didn't know any better, I did things differently the second time around.
We did look at rescue dogs but they wouldn't even consider us because we both worked full-time. This made me worry even more about the possiblility of getting a puppy from a breeder because we worked and they might not think we had enough time to dedicate to a puppy.
The OH and I have put a lot of effort into our dogs, we took time off when they first came home, I worked from home, we take in turns to go home during the day, arrange for dog walkers/neighbour/family to go in when we can't make it, and have trained both dogs and continue to do so even though Neo is now 2. My mum wanted us to wait until I was at home before we got a dog, but I wanted to make sure I had the dogs settled and trained before we embarked on a family of our own. I'll see how well it works the other way around when my brother get's their lab pup in 6 weeks (they have two children age 3 yrs and 6 yrs).
However, I'm sure there are many people who work fulltime who don't put as much effort into raising their dogs, and it must be very hard for the breeders to know what type of person they are dealing with even with all the questions.
I have to say I did find it all very daunting, but I guess more because I was worried we'd have been considered inadequate, when I know we have provided a loving caring home for both our dogs. There are two sides to every coin and I'm sure there are some people who do take the easy route to getting a puppy, I feel much better knowing I can phone Jovi's breeder about any problems as I didn't have that with Neo (although the phone no. was on the vaccination card).
If we ever add to our family of dogs, which is unlikely for a long while, we'll be going to a breeder and hoping they think we're suitable.
-
One of the families that bought one of my puppies rang me up to enquire and we chatted for about 10 minutes before I asked her any questions about working, arrangements etc. My first question was obviously did she work full time, at which case she said no, then automatically thought I thought she was a "dosser" (her words not mine :) ) She said she wasn't a dosser, she just had an 18 month old son so was now in a position to fulfil a dream. At the age of 13 when working in a vets, she decided she wanted a blue roan cocker spaniel bitch. Luckily for her when she rang me, one had become available. We chatted several times on the phone, I even spoke to her partner a few times too.....weeks of emails came checking on the puppy's progress, how she was getting on, was she ok after her injection etc, I just knew my puppy was going to a lovely caring home.
When the day came for the puppy to go, I felt i knew this young family like an old friend. When they saw the puppy for the very first time, they cried. They were overjoyed to see her. I knew from that moment, my puppy was in great hands.
The buyer was very knowledgeable on cockers. She had read a good book before she came and was asking me lots of questions on trimming etc. So I took Aimee and showed her where to trim etc. She was over the moon that I took the time to show her these things and explain things.
I know how first time buyers feel when buying a puppy. I was the third breeder this lady phoned and she told me later, she had spoken to a few who she felt were nasty, abrupt and couldn't be bothered to talk to her or sell her a puppy. Now this lady went the right way about buying a puppy. She started off with the Cocker Spaniel Club, who gave her the name and address of her local cocker club. She phoned this lady who was extremely rude to her, but eventually gave her an address of a breeder. Fortunately, she contacted my cousin who breeds cockers, who not having any puppies for sale, put her in touch with me. My cousin then rang me up and told me of this lady.
I know breeders like their puppies to go to loving and caring homes, I certainly do, but please give a thought for the genuine people out there who want to give a loving home to your puppy but are spoken to rudely. I agree with what Rachel said earlier in the post about not asking too many questions. Ask what you need to know nicely and politely, and you might find your prospective buyer will answer some of your questions without you even asking. Mine certainly did and I am proud that my puppies had loving and caring homes to go to, and I made nice friends in the process.
Sorry for the long epic, its just my thoughts on the subject!
Sandie
-
Hello Tidge
I don’t think the question of how far a puppy travels is of huge importance; I think the important part is making sure that the journey is as comfortable as possible for the puppy. Any journey (even short journeys) can be daunting and possibly uncomfortable for a pup. I always ask my puppy buyers to bring essential supplies (newspaper, water, bowl, kitchen towel, wet wipes and something to dispose of any soiled items). On the odd occasion an owner has forgotten to bring things I’m always happy to supply everything needed so that I can be sure the pup is as comfortable as possible. I also ask them to travel with the pup (if at all possible) in a crate rather than on their lap. I find pups get hot sitting on laps on the journey home and it’s also potentially dangerous if the driver need to brake sharply etc. The other thing I ask them to do is to check the heating in the car and ensure the car is neither too hot nor too cold (i.e. some moderate heat in cold weather and air condiditioning in hot weather).
What tends to happen with most owners who have a long journey to face is that they put either newspaper in the foot space of the car or in the boot area of an estate/hatchback. After a suitable time into the journey they stop in a safe area and allow the puppy to eliminate on the newspaper (which they are happy to use from their training here). They are also offered a drink of water and then the journey continues happily. In reality the majority of pups actually go straight to sleep at the start of the journey and don’t wake until they arrive in their new homes! Once there they are able to go to the toilet, drink and eat and explore.
Regards, Chris
-
Just a few thoughts on vetting!
I think all caring breeders want to know their pups are going to permanent, committed and loving homes. Some form of interaction between potential buyers is essential, hopefully the breeder can reassure themselves that the prospective owner can offer the type of home they desire and equally so the potential owner can ask questions and hopefully satisfy themselves that they are happy with the circumstances the pup has been reared in, the health and temperament of the puppy and feel that they will get good advice and support from the breeder.
Out of all the prospective owners I’ve met I have agreed to them having a puppy in all but two cases (won’t bore you with the details but pleased to say that both families contacted me a short while after to say that they realised that they weren’t as ready for a dog in their lives as they felt they were and thanked me for my honesty)
I’m very proud to say that out of the 70+ pups I’ve bred over the years I’m still in regular contact with EVERY owner. The owners have become friends and not a week goes by without some form of contact (i.e. emails, telephone calls, letters, photo’s, cards etc.) being made (usually initiated by the new or not so new owners!) I also get a couple of visits per year from the majority of my pups (dogs) even though some live a good 4 hours or so away.
The other thing I’m proud to say is that I’ve only ever had one dog back (although I would willingly take any of my pups/dogs back if needed!). The little chap (6 months old) who came back to me was very sadly relinquished after the family were involved in a very serious car accident. I’m still in regular contact with this family and consider myself privileged that they felt they could approach me at this terrible time for them rather than place the little lad into rescue etc.
Because my puppy buyers have all become friends I can see that my pups/dogs are healthy, happy and their owners are just as much in love with them months/years down the line as they were when they collected them.
The point of all this is that I feel that my vetting process has worked wonderfully for me as the “proof of the pudding is in the eating” as they say!
None of my potential buyers ever appeared intimidated by the process (in fact the majority of my buyers usually end up rolling around the carpet with the pups/dogs whilst the vetting is being carried out even though they have only met me face to face for a few minutes!). They are comfortable and relaxed here and made welcome and I personally enjoy my time with them as much as they appear to appreciate and enjoy the time I offer them.
Sorry this has been long but I felt I had a lot to say :o)
-
We keep in contact with all our babies and their families.
It is amazing how much you can find out from just chatting - covers tend to slip!!! There are pros and cons to every family sitution - and you have to decide whether a pup being left for a few hours during the day is enough to stop an otherwise loving and devoted person from having a puppy. I like to hear people tell me what they plan to do - the ones who have thought about it usually have an army style plan set out - and are really prepared!
Them asking questions is also a good sign that they have done a lot of thinking and preparation! If i don't think someone has done enough research i tell them to go and read up then come back.It is amazing how few of them do!
gut feeling also has it's uses!
clare
-
It is amazing how much you can find out from just chatting - covers tend to slip!!! There are pros and cons to every family sitution - and you have to decide whether a pup being left for a few hours during the day is enough to stop an otherwise loving and devoted person from having a puppy. I like to hear people tell me what they plan to do - the ones who have thought about it usually have an army style plan set out - and are really prepared!
My sentiments exactly! In fact I’m at pains to point out to any prospective owner that “negative” answers won’t automatically preclude anyone from having a puppy from me. I’m more than happy to talk about everything and see if a happy compromise can be achieved. I’ve found that all genuine people are very committed and will move heaven and earth to make sure things are right for their new puppy.
-
"If breeders find it so difficult to give up their pups, and expend so much energy seeking suitable homes, why do they breed at all?"
I couldn't give him an answer, can anyone who does breed help me out?
Because i have put years (effort and tears) into my dogs, aiming to breed perfect puppy's to join our family, and now, to be able to show. Unfortunatly there are hardly any one puppy litters, so homes need to be found for the rest of the family -as these puppys are no less important than the ones that stay the new homes have to be as good as mine! and i'm going to ask as many questions as i want and vet as hard as i feel neccessary to ensure this!
do i hear any here here's????
As for rehoming rates- i offer fostering, holiday care and rehoming to ALL puppies which i have bred - they NEVER really leave our family as far as i am concerned. If the owners i have chosen can't keep them - then i want them back! I have only had to rehome one puppy, on medical grounds, she came home and stayed! She now lives with my Ex - as most of you know.
-
:)
-
I can only imagine how hard it must be to find homes for puppies and then spend the next 12-15 years thinking - "was that the right home to chose" With large or several litters, it must be so emotionally draining. :(
as these puppys are no less important than the ones that stay the new homes have to be as good as mine!
I think that this is one of the things that I have had bad experiences with. Do you mean that those homes that are inexperienced, or have different circumstances to your own are not as good as yours, or do you mean a home where a dog will be loved and cared for as much as yours are? I would hope the second of the two, as it must be impossible for breeders to find homes with the same level of experience and knowledge as you and other breeders have.
When I began phoning breeders, the first few I spoke to, if my answers to their initial questions on the phone (which seemed to relate to my working hours, and having young children) were not the answers that the breeder wished to hear, then they were not prepared to find out if I could provide a caring, loving home for a puppy, they told me that they would not consider me as a home for one of their pups; end of conversation. One of them even said I would never find a breeder prepared to sell me a puppy until my daughter was much older :(
I was lucky. After a couple of knock backs, I was put in touch with Molos breeder, who was prepared to spend time with us and get to know us before she made a decison as to whether we were suitable. She told us that she hadn't rehomed to a family with a child as young as ours before, but by talking to us she realised that we had considered it carefully and she was happy with our plans.
If, instead of finding Molos breeder, I had been knocked back again, I would have begun to believe that we couldn't offer a home 'as good as' the breeders.
What should I then have done? I knew I could offer a good loving home to a dog; but I encountered many obstacles in my quest for a reputably bred, purebreed cocker :(
-
I can only imagine how hard it must be to find homes for puppies and then spend the next 12-15 years thinking - "was that the right home to chose" With large or several litters, it must be so emotionally draining. :(
as these puppys are no less important than the ones that stay the new homes have to be as good as mine!
I think that this is one of the things that I have had bad experiences with. Do you mean that those homes that are inexperienced, or have different circumstances to your own are not as good as yours, or do you mean a home where a dog will be loved and cared for as much as yours are?
Life is full of so many different people in so many different circumstances. Not all can offer a huge house and rambling garden - expecting this would be unreasonable (i don't even have this!)
I certainly mean new owners who will love and cherish our babies as much as we do - who have lots to offer the pup in the way of a fulfilling life - and complete devotion!.
Although someone who has had dogs in the past MAY be a good candidate, an inexperianced family should not be disregarded. They simply need more education and care to ensure that they are prepared and patient enough to cope with a puppy, or dog in general.
I am i firm believer that children and dogs can learn alot from each other. Young children would not count against a responsible otherwise perfect adult owner. The emphasis being on the adult. One of our puppies went to a family with 5 children (please don't pass out at this untill i explain...) I know the family quite well and they have a black cocker already. I insist on seeing the whole family - so they all came round and i watched how the younger ones interacted with the dogs. They were all considerate and gentle - a real credit to the parents. When alowed to see the puppies the youngest one (who could have easily grabbed one of the pups) asked his older sister to pick one up for him so he could have a cuddle!!!
Were they a good choice??? Well Yarnie gets a whole chicken to himself every sunday, sleeps on the bed and is spoiled and loved!
Certainly these are all my views - based on my experiance - certainly they are not set in stone and i would have no problem telling someone that i did not feel i could home a puppy with them if i was at all concerned about them
-
As you know, I am not a breeder but I do love my dogs and care for them with all my heart and soul. When Chloe has gone and it is time to get another puppy, I do not mind telling you that the breeder can make me jump through hoops if she feels that is what it takes to satisfy herself that her puppy is going to the best home. When I got Chloe, I knew nothing about buying a puppy or disreputable breeders. The owner asked nothing about circumstances, experience or anything else. She made it clear that she did not take them back under any circumstances nor would she help at holiday times. Lucky for the owner (and Chloe) that it was me and hubby that bought her. Chloe has cost, well, enough to buy a new car :D twice over probably. Do I begrudge it? Not one single penny. Not for a second. Do I think that she could easily have been bought by someone less serious about being an owner and found herself tied to a fence by some motorway when the going got tough? You bet I do. I know I am all over the place with this post but what I am trying to say is that for me (maybe not others), nothing breeders ask, no question, request, revelation of details, visit, proof, anything is too much in my opinion. All it says to me is that they love their precious babies as much as I would.
-
but what I am trying to say is that for me (maybe not others), nothing breeders ask, no question, request, revelation of details, visit, proof, anything is too much in my opinion. All it says to me is that they love their precious babies as much as I would.
My sentiments exactly Sheryl ;)