What Colour

[kookie]

I've just been to see some adorable cocker pups today, but can anyone tell me what colour these are?



They are 5 weeks old. Mum and dad are both black and tan.
Here are some other litter mates

[jakieboy]

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along but could they possibly be sable black/tans.

If you pm'd which breeder to me then its a possibility.

But I'm sure someone will be along that knows more then me

Nikki x

[*Jay*]

I've never seen pups that colour - will be very interested in the answer

[kookie]

We thought they might be sable, but having never seen them in the flesh before, we werent sure.

[Cob-Web]

I wondered if they were sables.........  I think I read that sables are quite rare, aren't they?

[Emily]

you dont get sables in this country the only sables here belong to pam walker

[*Jay*]

The one in the last photo looks like it could be a chocolate & tan........or is that just me??  

[Cob-Web]

Without going back to my reference sites; could they be a black/tan roan? I seem to remember that this can't happen though - as tan is recessive?

Oh b****r, I'm going to have to revisit some of the genetics sites I've bookmarked - I'm intrigued now  

[Pammy]

you could be right Gill - it's difficult form those photo's. My first reaction was Sables - but then I wondered if they're chocolate and tan.

Would be helpful to know where they are and whose litter it is

[Jane S]

They could be sables but as there's only one sable stud dog in the country & it's not a recessive colour, it's a bit strange where the colour has come from & they don't really look like sables. On the other hand, I'm sure I remember reading about pups that looked this sort of brindle colour when young but when they got older, the two tone effect disappeared - wish I could remember where this was, probably on one of the Yahoo groups. There's definitely some particolour in the lines as one of the pups has a white muzzle They're not black/tan roans - tan never appears as roaning as such, just in the traditional places (feet, inside ears, under tail etc).

Jane

[Cob-Web]

I suppose the sire may not be from the UK.....

[Emily]

They could be sables but as there's only one sable stud dog in the country & it's not a recessive colour, it's a bit strange where the colour has come from and they don't really look like sables. On the other hand, I'm sure I remember reading about pups that looked this sort of brindle colour when young but when they got older, the two tone effect disappeared - wish I could remember where this was, probably on one of the Yahoo groups. There's definitely some particolour in the lines as one of the pups has a white muzzle

Jane

[snapback]143225[/snapback]

Mum said something like this to me "Tiger striped" and it goes when there puppy coat comes out?

[Jane S]

Mum said something like this to me "Tiger striped" and it goes when there puppy coat comes out?

[snapback]143229[/snapback]

Yes that what I was thinking - the photos I remember looked exactly like these pups (think they might have been in Germany?)

Jane

[Kim]

I have seen a pup like this before, although it didn't have the tan markings.
As Emily has said I described it as 'Tiger Striped' after talking to Pam Walker.
It definitely isn't Sable & the markings disappear when the puppy coat comes out.

edited to add - I agree with Jane that there must be particolour in the breeding, which would explain the white muzzle, unless it is an over exposed photo!

[AmandaA]

Is this any help
"Sable
This color you describe (black dogs with brindle and gold fringes) sounds like a shaded sable.

Briefly, Sable is a gene in the "A" series. The specific gene is called "ay". The "ay" gene is very common in some breeds....hounds, collies, shelties....but rare in Spaniels.

Sable is inherited in Cockers the same way it is in Collies. You need a sable gene ("ay") combined with the tan gene ("at") for shaded sable to occur. Clear sable looks just like a "normal" red (ee). Some of those reds in the ancestry are probably clear sables.

Dark shaded sables tend to be very dark at birth and sometimes look like black and tans with the tan gone a bit awry. As they mature, the gold/red extends until the body coat is red and the jacket hairs are black tipped.

The Germans have taken quite a fancy to sable and they have become quite commonplace. They are producing both black shaded sable and liver shaded sable. The foundation stock in Germany that produced this color [in English Cocker Spaniels (ECS)] came from Squier's kennel here in the US. Mr. Squier acquired his first sable from a breeder in England.

It is felt by many purists that sable is an inappropriate color for ECS as it implies an impurity.....perhaps a cross at some point to a beagle or other similar type hound. Existing sables today, however, have been bred pure for many generations such that if there was an impurity, it is so diluted as to have no discernible influence on the breed, save the color.

The ECSCA, I believe, does recognize sable and sable parti-color (which I have not seen but understand is stunning) as valid colors although not without it's diehard critics.

Sable can also be liver shaded as well as black shaded although I have not seen any mention of liver sable being known of or accepted here in the US.

From a practical point of view, shaded sable (as opposed to clear sable which looks like normal red, sometimes with a dorsal stripe) is NOT what I would want for a field dog as the color is VERY hard to see. On the other hand, any solid color as well as very dark roan is difficult to see at least part of the year. So any argument on that account loses it's validity.

Folks interested in sable will find the most and possibly the best in Germany. They have become quite common there and are generally of excellent type. Most pedigrees show ancestors from prominent English and European kennels that could be easily utilized with our imports here, if anyone really wanted to pursue this.

Recommended Readings
·         Genetics of the Dog by Malcolm Willis"

Extract taken from "A Short Course on Coat Colour in Spaniels" by Karen Fremuth 1997