What Colour

[Ingrid from Sweden]

hi all i have one of these puppies they are sable although they dont look like the usual sable colour the colour sable is defined by the fact that the hair shaft is of two colours which these are they are blake on the ends and chocolate at the base thet have black noses which would be brown if they were chocolate coloured. As had been said they don't have any sable colours in thier pedigree but neither did the first sable sold to an americian as a black and tan it just appears in the genes.

Mark

[snapback]146668[/snapback]

Dear Mark,

I really don't understand what you mean with chocolate??

If it is a "ordinary" sable (looking like mine) it is red in the base and black on top of the back. If it is chocolate at the base they are liver sable.

~Ingrid

[Ingrid from Sweden]

Hi all,

As I just took two recent pictures of my grown up sables I thought I should post them here so you can have a look.

It is "Xarah" Xarah Sable Vom Eschenweg & "Aladdin" Neville Sable Man Vom Eschenweg on the top of the page. They are both shown in Sweden for many different judges. They love to work in obediance classes, agility and so on. I have them with me in the woods riding our horse.

http://www.mightyfalls.com/efoton34.htm

The other sable on the page  is our "Annie" Zackrose's Annie-Sablesun, she is soon to be 2 years old and she is out of Swedish x Schweiz (Levana) lines.

~Ingrid

[Gilly]

Beautiful Ingrid   looks a different colour than Daisy though.

[kookie]

Well, I dont know what colour she technically is, she is registered as sable, and the kennel club have apparently been on to Pam Walker regarding this litter. The KC have accepted the registration, so we will have to see how they all turn out.
She is my little adorable (most of the time) bundle of mischeif and I love her nomatter what she turns out to be. She is Alfie's new best friend and the 2 are inseparable.
Mark, it would be interesting to see some pics of your pup here.

[flozac]

this might be my 2nd post on this topic i don't know if i posted the last one. However karen i don't know what colour Daisy is but she is gorgous. So does it really matter.


Ingrid , I have looked at your website and your dogs are just stunning. Keep up the good work

[Phaedra]

Concerning the inheritance and genetics of the sable colour:

I have been puzzled by the inheritance of this pattern for some time and did not find answers enough when I searched the Internet. Therefore, I made a 'study' of all litters in Sweden with either:

* At least one sable parent

or

* At least one sable pup, no matter the colour of the parents.

At this time (April), there were about 20 litters in Sweden that matched my criteria. There was only one litter with non-sable parents. This was a litter by a blue roan male out of a black bitch - with a sable father. This combination had thrown 'blue roan sables'.

Litters out of sable + red only threw sable or red.

Some litters did not have any sable pups at all. I checked the parentage of the parents and realised that in all cases there was a chance that the non-sable paret was homozygotus for black. Both grandparent on this side was 'black' - E on that locus (blue roan, black, liver etc).

There were very few cases with sable lines on both sides of the pedigree. Which means that sable has to be a dominant trate. All the sables in Sweden cannot be black & tans, blue roans & tans or tricolour with 'too much red (not that I ever believed that, but you got to check it up).

My conclusion was:

Sable is a dominant gene, that is only visible on a red-based dog (genotyp ee: red, golden, orange roan or red/white). The sable gene causes the black pigment to spread partly over the body of the dog. The gene can be carried by black-based dogs (genotype Ee or EE), but is not visible since the entire body is - black.

Still, the gene is dominant. Which means: that blacks/b&t/blue roans/livers etc out of sable parentage can throw sable IF they, apart from the sable gene, also carry red (e) and are mated to a red-based dog or a dog that carries red.

'Blue roan sable' is misleading. Ok, these dogs LOOK like blue roans, but genetically they have ee on that locus. They will not throw black-based dogs with non black-based dogs. 'Orange roan sable* would be more correct and why not sable roan*

The chocolate sable or liver sable should be a dog with 'golden' base colour - eebb.  

Yep!

Anneli

[AmandaA]

Thanks for that info Anneli.
I am trying to get into the genetic and colours of dogs {not to try to breed sable}
just i find it all very interesting.

[mark smith]

hi all i have one of these puppies they are sable although they dont look like the usual sable colour the colour sable is defined by the fact that the hair shaft is of two colours which these are they are blake on the ends and chocolate at the base thet have black noses which would be brown if they were chocolate coloured. As had been said they don't have any sable colours in thier pedigree but neither did the first sable sold to an americian as a black and tan it just appears in the genes.

Mark

[snapback]146668[/snapback]

Dear Mark,

I really don't understand what you mean with chocolate??

If it is a "ordinary" sable (looking like mine) it is red in the base and black on top of the back. If it is chocolate at the base they are liver sable.

~Ingrid

[snapback]149050[/snapback]

hi ingrid sorry its taken me so long to get back i would agree that they are chocolate sable or liver as you call it

[mark smith]

Concerning the inheritance and genetics of the sable colour:

I have been puzzled by the inheritance of this pattern for some time and did not find answers enough when I searched the Internet. Therefore, I made a 'study' of all litters in Sweden with either:

* At least one sable parent

or

* At least one sable pup, no matter the colour of the parents.

................................
Anneli

[snapback]150652[/snapback]

hi anneli
what colour would you say these dogs are they are chocolate at the base and black on the ends
most of thier pedigree is black and tan and they have some parti colour breeding in them
mark

[Phaedra]

To be sable, they must have some sable lineage. Most of it is traceable. Of course, there is a possibility that there are sable lines that have been hidden under black/blue etc for generations. But....? Well, I do believe that we know most of the lines. It is not likely that sable genes are hidden for generation.

Concerining the puppie - I think they are black and tans, mabye some of them have chocolate genes? Sometimes this can add a more rusty shade to a black coat.

But - Time Will Tell!

Anneli

[lyn]

i have a black and tan puppy and he doesn't look anything like these.he does have a choccy brown tinge to his coat but its the puppy fluff(so i have been told)and it's def not half and half like these puppies.i can't wait to see more piccies of them i think they are gorgeous

[mark smith]

To be sable, they must have some sable lineage. Most of it is traceable. Of course, there is a possibility that there are sable lines that have been hidden under black/blue etc for generations. But....? Well, I do believe that we know most of the lines. It is not likely that sable genes are hidden for generation.

Concerining the puppie - I think they are black and tans, mabye some of them have chocolate genes? Sometimes this can add a more rusty shade to a black coat.

But - Time Will Tell!

Anneli

[snapback]153176[/snapback]

nice to hear  your views only i dont believe its as simple as having to have a sable gene as the very first sable cocker never had those genes if these were black and tan with chocolate in them why is the hair shaft both black and chocolate? also the pedigree is mostley black and tan and as we know black is the dominante gene and chocolate is recessive which is not in thier lines

[Black Angel's]

Daisy is beautiful,what a color ! I have never seen this color,very interesting! Kookie,do you have some new pictures of Daisy?

Iva

[Black Angel's]

I saw in galery new pics,she is georgeus!