here go's

[claireandmartin]

please don't all go mad at me i can't cope with that at the moment but i just have one issue i would love to bring up but have been too scared to before now and its about breeding.

there are many posts from people on here who are thinking of breeding their bitches and might i add wanting to do it the right way but when ever i read a post about it  it seems like they always get a negative responce, why is this surley if they have had all the relevent tests done and have found a suitable stud dog why not...
people keep going on about acredited breeders but surley all these acredited breeders would have to start some where, i just don't think its fair sometimes when people post about thinking of breeding they get all the negative feedback asuming they are going to be rubbish breeders.

everyone that breeds has to start somewhere to get to be a reputable breeder....

please don't all jump at once lol its just something that i have noticed since i have been a member on here.
oh and also one other point why does the sire and the dam have to be good in the ring, surley not all people want to show their dogs, arn't dogs ment to be first and formost PETS.

[supaspaniel]

that was brave

I always thought it would be lovely to breed with my boys and perhaps one day have a bitch and start my own line.....I'm really glad I didn't do it to be honest...there is an awful lot of responsibility with breeding pups that a lot of people dont realise and I think sometimes the comments sound a little harsh because it comes from those who really do know and its difficult to  get a point across without it sounding harsh.

I agree in that everyone has to start somewhere and in my experience not all of those who seem reputable are...but for the sake of the pups it must not be started lightly and I think thats the point that some try to get across

[Cob-Web]

This is a subject that I didn't understand at first, but this is my understanding in relation to show strains after 3 years of COL: 

The only reason I can think of for bringing more dogs into a world when there are thousands upon thousands of unwanted dogs PTS every year, is to ensure the continuity of the existing breeds.
The KC sets standards for the breeds........and so deliberately bred litters should conform to this Standard. The way that this is judged is through showing. so a dog that is doing well should be selected for breeding (assuming health and temperament is sound) rather than a dog which may not pass on such good "breed standard" genes.

The majority of litters bred in this way are *sold* to pet homes (just like Molo  ), so there is really no need to breed pets.......they are the natural result of litters bred by reputable breeders looking to improve and perpetuate the breed 

As I said, that is how I see the situation......which is influenced by time spent on the DogPages website, which is primarily a rescue site and which has a number of members who believe that all dog breeding should be banned

[*Lucy*]

I think you've raised a good point here - as you know, yesterday i posted about thinking of breeding my bitch Molly and i did get quite alot of negative responses. I was intending breeding for pets NOT show as some people do not want to show their dogs but i seem to have still got this wrong. I was told by a reputable breeder that i was doing a good thing - mating Molly (who is a little small for the breed) with a stockier dog in order for the puppies to be of better quality. But what do i know It was just an idea after all! Anyway i decided not to breed Molly and have put a deposit on a lovely Orange Roan bitch (who IS KC Registered and both parents have had relevant eye tests done) Picking her up begining of April have a look......
 
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l20/PeterC_2006/katepup009.jpg

 

[claireandmartin]

AWWWWWWWWWWWWW SHE IS GEORGEOUS I WANT ONE 

[Jan/Billy]

yesterday i posted about thinking of breeding my bitch Molly and i did get quite alot of negative responses. ...Anyway i decided not to breed Molly and have put a deposit on a lovely Orange Roan bitch (who IS KC Registered and both parents have had relevant eye tests done) Picking her up begining of April have a look......
 
 

Bloomin heck that was quick !! 

Beautiful 

[Cob-Web]

yesterday i posted about thinking of breeding my bitch Molly and i did get quite alot of negative responses. ...Anyway i decided not to breed Molly and have put a deposit on a lovely Orange Roan bitch (who IS KC Registered and both parents have had relevant eye tests done) Picking her up begining of April have a look......
 
 

Bloomin heck that was quick !! 

Beautiful 

She is cute -I'm amazed you found one so quickly - will she be endorsed until her breeder agrees that she is suitable for breeding? 

[Jan/Billy]

The KC sets standards for the breeds........and so deliberately bred litters should conform to this Standard. The way that this is judged is through showing. so a dog that is doing well should be selected for breeding (assuming health and temperament is sound) rather than a dog which may not pass on such good "breed standard" genes.

The majority of litters bred in this way are *sold* to pet homes (just like Molo  ), so there is really no need to breed pets.......they are the natural result of litters bred by reputable breeders looking to improve and perpetuate the breed 

Plus, I may be wrong here, but am I right in saying that a decent stud owner will only mate with a bitch that is proven in the show ring??? One of my friends is about to mate her bitch for the first time. It has taken her five years from deciding she wanted to breed to getting to this point, she's done everything by the book & it's taken her a long time.  Her bitch has done superb in the show ring & she now feels the time is right & is all prepared.  Her stud dog owner she met in the show world.

Edited to add the bitch she is breeding isn't 5 years old, this is her second dog, her first was unsuitable to breed from, can't remember why, may have been results from tests.  

[*Lucy*]

We are not going to breed from her either! We made an impulse buy when we got Molly and didnt check if she was KC Registered as the advert just said 'registered' (she's Dog Lover's) We also didnt ask if parents had tests done as we didnt even know these existed! We've just made sure this time that we've done everything we can to make sure we get a great puppy - Not that Molly isn't great - but just made sure everything is ok.

[Jan/Billy]

and didnt check if she was KC Registered as the advert just said 'registered' (she's Dog Lover's)

That's what they do, they are very very sneeky in making you think registered automatically means KC 

[Cob-Web]

We are not going to breed from her either! We made an impulse buy when we got Molly and didnt check if she was KC Registered as the advert just said 'registered' (she's Dog Lover's) We also didnt ask if parents had tests done as we didnt even know these existed! We've just made sure this time that we've done everything we can to make sure we get a great puppy - Not that Molly isn't great - but just made sure everything is ok.

That's good to hear 

[*Lucy*]

Sorry claire and martin - seem to have taken over your post!!

[Jane S]

there are many posts from people on here who are thinking of breeding their bitches and might i add wanting to do it the right way but when ever i read a post about it  it seems like they always get a negative responce, why is this surley if they have had all the relevent tests done and have found a suitable stud dog why not...

But that's the point Claire, most of the people who ask about breeding don't know about health testing and have done very little homework at all - they think it would be a nice idea to have a litter from their lovely pet bitch but have no idea of the responsibilities this involves or the implications of breeding a litter. It's COL's job to make sure that everyone thinking about breeding goes about it the right way and for the right reasons. It's too important an issue not to be treated seriously which is why replies may seem negative but they're made with the interests of the breed we all love at heart. I'm sure everyone who gives advice on these kind of threads gets very disheartened by the "I'll do what I want" attitude of some would-be breeders but every now and again, someone does listen (like Lucy A ) which means our efforts weren't wasted

[Tasha]

its a little narrow to have to insist that the only reputable breeders are those that show, thats simply not true because the cocker has sadly lost its roots and the breed has split, the working cocker is bred based on its working ability first and foremost beauty comes second although there are some breeders from both sides of the coin that are trying to do both or at least meet in the middle - to have a true working but good show dog that meets the standard. NOW that would be a real achievement that would benefit the breed.

As a gun dog breed I don't think that anyone should be breeding just because they show, they should be trying to achieve a WHOLE dog and not just a pretty one because this is a working breed.  At the end of the day people show because its a hobby and an interest, you can only show the same dog for so many years and yes there is an element of breeding to attain a certain look to 'win' but that doesn't necessarily mean its for the benefit of the breed otherwise we wouldn't have a split in it.  What it does mean is that they have read the standard and are trying to breed to achieve that but in the process are breeding far too many dogs... those benefit the pet market requirements.

However if the pet owners then breed their dogs with knowledge neither about the showing or working requirements of the breed you start to get dogs that eventually meet neither standard for the breed and in the process have an enormous overflow of puppies that are either in rescue, destroyed or worse and that goes for ALL three breeding avenues. If everyone stopped breeding for a year we would nearly clear all the dogs in rescue.  So maybe if anyone is thinking of breeding take a look at rescue and ask yourself should you be adding to that burden??

Personally I don't think pet dogs should be bred they are after all pets, were brought as a companion and do a good job at it so there is no need to burden them or the rest of the breed with additional pups.

If you want to breed then follow the right route learn about the breed, read up and practise your knowledge on the standard buy yourself a dog and work you behind off until you have something that is worth being bred from.

[Cob-Web]

its a little narrow to have to insist that the only reputable breeders are those that show, thats simply not true because the cocker has sadly lost its roots and the breed has split, the working cocker is bred based on its working ability first and foremost beauty comes second although there are some breeders from both sides of the coin that are trying to do both or at least meet in the middle -

I agree Tasha - which is why I referred to show strains in my post  But surely in the case of working dogs, they should be "proven" either in trials or the field? At the moment, the breeding of working cockers is a growth area, purely because they have a lower maintaintance coat, and they can still be advertised as "cute" cocker spaniels - which can lead to disappointment on the part of the new owners, as past posts have shown

I know that in some other countries, gundogs have to be proven in both the showing and the field to become a champion; but from a purely selfish perspective, I don't like the idea  I was particularly looking for a dog as a pet which did not have a high working drive; and if reputably bred pedigrees were selected for their working ability, then there would be far fewer suitable homes able to meet their needs