Charlie has developed some issues .... :((

[Philtrum]

Hi All

long time no type, been spending all my time working / enjoying family and dog, however charlie has got 2 problems (or we have 2 problems with him)

I was hoping for some advice from the wealth of knowledge on here

the first one Im sure I ahve the answer ... when he wakes up he barks .. consistantly until someone comes downstairs ... we I suppose tought him this by when he was a pup coming down so he did not wake my 3 year old daughter up ... this morning I left him barking for an hour before I came down (took him out for a wee then back in his crate) ... I assume I just need to carry on like this, its not like he is desperate for a wee or a poo when he first gets up .. so its not a toilet call.

the 2nd is more serious ... I have a 3 year old daughter so I cant put her at risk

Charlie has become food agressive when eating from a bowl .... he has just tried to take a chunk out of me for talking to him when he was eating (I was by his bowl before he started eating and made no movements)
he was all snarly and deep growl .. I shouteed at him and he ran into his crate after snarling and airsnapping once

if we hand feed him .. he is very very gentle and would not do anything bad (my daughter currently hands feeds him without any problem (to ensure she has high status))

he has also started snatching my daughters toys (polly pocket etc) and chewing them ... and today he had a low growl at me when I took it off him ,.. he then snarled and barked .. so I shouted no .. and pushed him outside  into the back garden (we where in conservatory) and shut the door for a few mins

I think he is ace .. but I cant put my family at risk ... any advice is more than welcomed .. or recommendations for a behaviourlist near tamworth in the midlands

thanks loads
Phil  and Charlie

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Ok, firstly I'm not a behaviourist so can only talk from experience with my last dog and current pup.

I suspect you might be right about the barking, they learn very quickly that if they make noise and you come that's the best thing for them to do.. I TOTALLY ignore Dave when he makes any noise... if he's wimpering at me when we're in the same room I wonder around pretending I can't hear anything then when he's quiet I go and give him some attention.

I don't really believe in disciplining dogs (i.e. shouting or pushing) for doing what comes naturally to them, they will tend to go to war with you or become nervous and IMO it's not a good way to build a great relationship with your pup. I would rather manage the situation than expect a dog to live by human thinking - particularly at this early stage - they won't understand why you push them away or shout.

I wouldn't mess about with any dog when they're eating as this can make them nervous and start guarding their food. I would feed him away from your daughter and let him eat his dinner quietly. I don't think your daughter hand feeding at this age is a good idea. If you imagine someone bothering you when you were eating you might start to get an issue with them.. if they leave you alone, no need for any issues.

I have a 4 yr old and a 15 week old pup and at the moment, by and large I keep them separate apart from supervised play. I don't let my pup near my sons toys and I don't let my son wave toys around near him. It's a long slow process but slowly Dave is starting to respect my son and leave things when I ask him to and my son is getting a better understanding of how to behave around a pup (he grew up with a dog but a puppy is a different ball game). I have never shouted at Dave I just keep things calm and under control if there is an issue he gets quietly removed to a place on his own and I keep them both separate with a baby gate. They will gradually have more access to each other as Dave grows and time passes.. this way we are avoiding any accidents that might hurt my son, or damage my pups confidence in people and children and I should end up with a happy, kind and tolerant animal. I know someone that has been very hard on a cocker that was much less of a handful than my last dog and he is now a very difficult dog to manage and very grumpy around kids.

I would find a really good positive clicker training school and chat to the trainer about the best way to manage your home situation for the best result for all of you.

Lots of luck

Hannah x

ETA: A dog really does want to please so if you do lots of positive training with him and he gets to understand when you're pleased with him and he's being good.. he's much more likely to listen to you if you want him to stop doing something.. I say 'Ah ah leave' to Dave when he has hold of something I don't want him to and he's just started to let go willingly because he likes our relationship being a happy one and wants to please and listen to me because he knows he gets treats and praise when he does things I like him doing.

[Mari]

I would leave him alone when he's eating, so he knows you won't take his food. And continue to handfeed sometimes or hold the bowl for him. You could also put something extra tasty in his bowl when he's eating. Just drop it into his food and walk away. That way he knows you did not come to try and take his food. It's a good thing that you were close, he just won a treat

My dog has food agression towards other dogs, so I did all these things to ensure she did not start with people. It is natural for them to protect their food, so we need to make them feel safe that no one is going to steal the food.

She also wants to own everything she finds on the floor. So when she takes something she is not supposed to have I swap. I never take it away, I praise her for finding it, and swap with a treat or a dog toy. Now if she has something in her mouth and I say "drop it", she'll spit it out and come to me for her reward. Happy to give away anything but pigs ears

You'll probably get better advise from the more experienced people in here. But these are the advise I was given when I saw my puppie getting food aggression towards other dog. I found it best to ask how to best prevent it from developing into a problem. And it has worked, she's not bothered by people near her food.

Good luck, hope it all works out for you and charlie and your daughter!

[Philtrum]

thanks for the responses.  The food aggression started not with me interfering with his dinner but when i or my daughter walked by he started to growl or bark. THerefore i was advised that i should get him used to someone being near so this doesn't persist and he realises that we're not taking his food away.  I did try putting extra's in his bowl so he knew he was getting a treat and not taking food away again but he is still guarding and quite badly.  At times i can do it and he's fine but the majority of times he does guard.

As far as taking my daughters toys - i dont want to praise him for finding the toys but we do often give him one of his toys when he gets other stuff he shouldn't and swap it.  I want him to know he cant take her toys just as she cant take his.  As far as keeping her toys out of  the way so he cant get them it then means that Charlie and my daughter would have to be separated most of the time which seems to defeat the purpose of a family dog as they've got a good relationship.  Are there some real do's and don'ts in terms of food guarding.  Some people seem to think you should take the bowl away when they food guard (which to me seems to just reiterate what the dogs thinking) and others say you should add treats to the food bowl whilst eating.

[Coco]

I've not got children but Wherry did used to like to find whatever was lying around and make it her 'toy'.
Now she has her own little toy box (basket) and she can go and help herself out of there she knows where her bits and pieces are and they are generally more fun for her than a sponge or whetever she comes across. Also at my aunts she has one pink pig that is kept with her 4 year olds toys and she knows that's the only one she can take and play with - after alot of swapping tactics. Obviously this only work because she is wanting to play with something as opposed to wanting something of ours or that we are using specifically. If it's a case of 'I want what you've got' then I don't know but i've never found this to be her motivation when 'stealing' something; she just wants to play.

[Cob-Web]

I want him to know he cant take her toys just as she cant take his.
As far as keeping her toys out of  the way so he cant get them it then means that Charlie and my daughter would have to be separated most of the time which seems to defeat the purpose of a family dog as they've got a good relationship. 

Good luck with that 

IMO, this required a very high level of obedience training, and although it is perfectly possible to train a dog to ignore things like children's toys, I decided that the investment in time was better spent doing fun things (agility, for instance), and we have a "no dogs upstairs, no childrens toys downstairs" policy, instead 

Lil'bit and our dogs have a fantastic relationship - but she doesn't play with her toys when she is interacting with the dogs; her toys are for her to play with  When we got Molo as a pup, one of the things we had to do before he arrived was clear the toys from downstairs and re-arrange her room so that she had play-space. If she wants a particular game or toy downstairs to play along with us, then the dogs are popped behind the babygate in the kitchen 

As Molo has got older, he does actually ignore toys that he may encounter - but that has come with age and is not something we have trained, and Bonnee would be straight in there for a chew if she saw a Polly Pocket or Barbie lying around - she is much younger 

[Hurtwood Dogs]

That was my point too.. I'm not trying to stop Dave from having a relationship with my son, far from it.

But it won't happen straight away and has to be worked at carefully. It's important that they are the best of friends ultimately but we need to prevent any nasty situations occurring to get there. Puppies need managing as they are totally different to older dogs (my last cocker never took Tom's toys or growled at him when he was eating, but he was a year old when Tom was born). Dave is too young to know very much yet and by keeping kids toys, small child and puppy separate at this time unless I can supervise fully, it doesn't become confrontational or an issue. The baby gate is there to give them both the chance to have a break from each other and rest in their own spaces. My son can happily play with his toys and Dave isn't tormented by a little legs that he wants to nibble. As time has passed they're already doing more things together - 3 weeks ago I Tom couldn't walk into the same room without Dave hanging off his trousers so I had to stop Tom doing that for a bit and we did lots of controlled situations where Dave got praised for not doing the bad thing. At this moment, they are both watching TV together and Dave is much calmer and knows he can't hang off Tom's trousers. Because Dave is in with him Tom knows that he can't have any toys on the floor but he knows he can at another time. Gradually as Dave grows it wont be such an issue, but right now it is and by managing it we have avoided any confrontation or accidents or upset to either of them and they are learning to co-exist.

Hannah x

[*sammy*]

That was my point too.. I'm not trying to stop Dave from having a relationship with my son, far from it.

But it won't happen straight away and has to be worked at carefully. It's important that they are the best of friends ultimately but we need to prevent any nasty situations occurring to get there. Puppies need managing as they are totally different to older dogs (my last cocker never took Tom's toys or growled at him when he was eating, but he was a year old when Tom was born). Dave is too young to know very much yet and by keeping kids toys, small child and puppy separate at this time unless I can supervise fully, it doesn't become confrontational or an issue. The baby gate is there to give them both the chance to have a break from each other and rest in their own spaces. My son can happily play with his toys and Dave isn't tormented by a little legs that he wants to nibble. As time has passed they're already doing more things together - 3 weeks ago I Tom couldn't walk into the same room without Dave hanging off his trousers so I had to stop Tom doing that for a bit and we did lots of controlled situations where Dave got praised for not doing the bad thing. At this moment, they are both watching TV together and Dave is much calmer and knows he can't hang off Tom's trousers. Because Dave is in with him Tom knows that he can't have any toys on the floor but he knows he can at another time. Gradually as Dave grows it wont be such an issue, but right now it is and by managing it we have avoided any confrontation or accidents or upset to either of them and they are learning to co-exist.

Hannah x

this is basically exactly the same as we do with connor. if connor wants to play sam goes in the ktichen . it makes it more less stressfull. we also polay with sam with sams toys in the kitchen and i know think they are coming to understand their rooms. when sam is in the living room now he doesn't bother with connors toys as their in the box away. if they were out i wouldn't expect sam at this age not to try and play with them.

i also keep them apart when i can not watch everything that's going on. although we were in the kitchen earlier and i was making connors tea. turned around and he was lying in sams bed and sam had jumped on top of him it was really funny, but as i've always told connor not to go near his bed when sams in there i found it hard not to laugh

[Philtrum]

Thanks for the advice

I appreciate that Grace (daughter) and Charlie will have to play seperate if toys are involved (certainly Graces) and we do have a stairgate so grace can play in the lounge without disturbance and allows us to relax.

my main concern is the food guarding, as when grace walked up to him and he had one of his toys .. he did a little growl ... and I cant be having that

if there is no bowl he is as gentle as a mouse .. and will feed happily from someones hand without even a slight guard or anything .. its loverly, but as soon as he has his head in his bowl .. if your anywhere near he guzzles it down .. and sometimes growls .. if you talk to him to go too near .. then its like the devil is unleashed

anyone got any advice on the food / guarding side as im concerned safety wise

he has a stairgate on his room (what was the pantry) but even then if your near that he growls

Cheers
Phil

[Abby]

Hi Phil

Have you seen Jean Donaldson's book 'Mine'. Its basically a training manual for dogs with guarding issues of all sorts. I'd be very happy to lend you my copy so you can see if it has any useful advice. Or you can get it over the net.

Pm me if you'd like to borrow it to have a look at. And don't worry, this is definitely something you can sort out. 

Abby x

[Ben's mum]

Ben used to food guard.  Our behaviourist advised us to buy a couple of cheap food bowls and start by putting a small amount of food in Bens main bowl, then while he is eating that put some more in the next bowl and putting it a couple of feet away, so that you don't crowd them while they eat, then the same again, so that as each bowl is emptied they are looking for the next one. 

when your dog is comfortable doing that, start to place the second bowl closer to the one he is eating from, as by now he will know you are giving food not taking it away, till you get to the point after a couple of weeks where you can stand right next to them while they eat to fill up the next bowl.  eventualy you can try putting food into their main bowl while they are eating. but don't rush to get to this stage until your dog is completley relaxed by you being around while he has his food.

Another thing I was told to do was to put some dry food on the floor - scattered around so then just sit down nearby.  ben was so intent on looking for all the biscuits after a while he forgot I was there.  and he never seemed to guard the whole floor in the way he tried to do with a bowl!!

hope this helps - get some good advice from a behaviourist, ours was wonderful

Bens mum

[JenSam]

Phil,

Sorry I can't offer you any advice.  Just wanted to say that I hope you get this sorted.

Jen

[PennyB]

Ruby began the food guarding and also growling when I wanted to get her off the sofa thing age 6 months. I do think a lot of dogs whatever the breed can push their luck a bit at this age (and throughout adolescence).

I began working through these things in a positive and non-threatening manner and it has worked and Ruby wouldn't even dream of growling at me now over food or the sofa, and she's now a cracking fantastic 5 y old

As others suggest try reading Jean Donaldsons book and some of the other things people are suggesting.

[Nicola]

One thing to mention is not to shout at or punish the dog for growling - a growl is a warning that they are not happy about something and if you stop them from growling they may just go right ahead and snap the next time they are not happy without giving the warning growl first. TBH although none of them have ever done it growling at me is something that I would also find unacceptable from my dogs but if they ever did it I would not chastise them for it, I would look at what had caused them to growl and work on that.

[Philtrum]

Hi

thanks for all the advice

I working with the 2 bowls method at the moment and also feeding in the garage as a larger space and not "his" territory

I totaly understand not to chastise on growl ... but it was hard not to when he was snapping at me ... he has growled since  think its still ok that he has the warning signs