When is a cocker breeder not a cocker breeder???

[aberry]

As access to free ad websites expose the general public to buying pups via the internet - how can novices expect to know who is considered a 'good' breeder and one who happens fills in all the right paperwork ?  I have been with a friend to look 'for the right puppy' and our experience was eye-opening ....  we actually found the the conditions in which pups were reared varied enormously ... in both groups.  She wanted a pup that had been reared within the home, exposed to noises - well socialised etc etc This clearly wasn't possible with breeders with a large number of dogs ... yet they were the ones with the reputation and the knowledge .... the 'one off' breeders with pups running around the house - with no knowledge or access to showing, working but had all the tests done and the paperwork - did actually attract my friend more readily.  (We did not go to any puppy farms or even licenced breeders - just to clarify!)

Armed with my own personal experience of Cockers and access to websites and forums such as this I was left to ask all the questions and felt proud of myself for seemingly having some knowledge  !!.... my friend felt intimidated - to use her word! and reminded me that she was after a pet and wanted a cocker spaniel and all the ins and outs of line breeding - health testing and so forth were for the breeders to worry about not the dog owners !!  She could not see that actually that was what we were doing... sussing out the good breeders from the rest.  In the end she decided on a pup that was in the first litter the 'breeder' (KC kennel name and applying for Accredited breeder status) had had - using her own (well-bred) dog with a well-bred stud ..... she did not know the health history of the stud but said the stud was from a 'good' kennel so must be ok!!

It brings me to ask again ...... when is a cocker breeder not a cocker breeder ??

[mcphee]

Phew, I am sure ( well I hope) you will get lots of helpful responses, because it is a question which has occurred to me, for if I do decide to get another cocker in the autumn. TBH, all the risks do appear quite scary, and what I have seen is that sometimes even with research  and care people have been misled. So I will be following this thread with interest. Thank you.

[Jane S]

It brings me to ask again ...... when is a cocker breeder not a cocker breeder ??

Anybody who breeds a litter of Cockers is a Cocker breeder, whether they are good, bad or indifferent and even if they only have one litter from their pet bitch. What you mean is how do you tell the good breeders from the bad & you've answered that really by mentioning the research you've done so you know what questions to ask & what you want in a breeder. Yes it can be a minefield sorting the wheat from the chaff but doing as much homework as possible beforehand will certainly help as there is plenty of information on the net about how to find reputable breeders, from breed club sites to forums like this one.

She wanted a pup that had been reared within the home, exposed to noises - well socialised etc etc This clearly wasn't possible with breeders with a large number of dogs ... yet they were the ones with the reputation and the knowledge ....

It is certainly possible to find an experienced show breeder who does all the health tests AND rears their litters in the home - I know plenty of show people who do this so it's not a mutually exclusive thing. It's just that breeders like this tend not to advertise on free-ad sites - as we say on here time after time, these kind of sites are not the best way to source a puppy from a reputable breeder. Some good breeders do use these sites but many do not - they don't need to as they rely on breed club recommendations, their own personal websites, KC litter ads etc.

[mcphee]

It brings me to ask again ...... when is a cocker breeder not a cocker breeder ??

Anybody who breeds a litter of Cockers is a Cocker breeder, whether they are good, bad or indifferent and even if they only have one litter from their pet bitch. What you mean is how do you tell the good breeders from the bad & you've answered that really by mentioning the research you've done so you know what questions to ask & what you want in a breeder. Yes it can be a minefield sorting the wheat from the chaff but doing as much homework as possible beforehand will certainly help as there is plenty of information on the net about how to find reputable breeders, from breed club sites to forums like this one.

She wanted a pup that had been reared within the home, exposed to noises - well socialised etc etc This clearly wasn't possible with breeders with a large number of dogs ... yet they were the ones with the reputation and the knowledge ....

It is certainly possible to find an experienced show breeder who does all the health tests AND rears their litters in the home - I know plenty of show people who do this so it's not a mutually exclusive thing. It's just that breeders like this tend not to advertise on free-ad sites - as we say on here time after time, these kind of sites are not the best way to source a puppy from a reputable breeder. Some good breeders do use these sites but many do not - they don't need to as they rely on breed club recommendations, their own personal websites, KC litter ads etc.

Jane, so if one has a Reprobate  mostly working strain cocker, like my darling, but would like a show strain, but doesn't show or know these high quality home show breeders who do not advertise, is there a means of contacting them? Does one go through the local breed club?

[Michele]

In the end she decided on a pup that was in the first litter the 'breeder' (KC kennel name and applying for Accredited breeder status) had had - using her own (well-bred) dog with a well-bred stud ..... she did not know the health history of the stud but said the stud was from a 'good' kennel so must be ok!!

It brings me to ask again ...... when is a cocker breeder not a cocker breeder ??

The above is what made me sit up and think. If she is trying to do everything right, why on earth would she use a dog that she knows nothing about its health history??

[aberry]

It was a friend of mine that chose the puppy (for herself) - rather against all the nudging i was giving her to point her in the right direction .... and we visited two reputable breeders who did not advertise on line but that we made contact with via phone ...  four visits were then made to those advertising via the web that my friend insisted on seeing. 

The point I am trying to make is that many of the general public - who may well be excellent dog-owners - dont have the time, interest or access to the information that we cocker lovers do - they just want a nice pet.....  and by default, without knowing about the implications of inappropriate breeding..... go quite innocently into producing puppies.  This was clearly quite obvious with two of the 'breeders' we met who dearly loved their dogs and had produced very nice puppies but had no idea about 'cockers online' or the possible hereditary problems or indeed any books they could had referred to.  My friend was cursing me for embarrasing them though i tried to do it nicely !! 

I would not call them 'bad' breeders because they did not know any different and they certainly loved and cared for their dogs.

One other we visited obviously just wanted to make money and the two reputable breeders asked my friend all the right questions and described the successful wins over the last few years at shows which, of course, i was very interested in but which put my friend off.  She contacted me this morning to say she had made a decision .... and she is picking pup up on Saturday !!

[Jane S]

I would not call them 'bad' breeders because they did not know any different and they certainly loved and cared for their dogs.

I'm sorry but I would call them bad breeders or maybe ignorant breeders because they went into doing something which bears a heavy responsibility without doing any prior research. Loving your dogs is just not enough. When we bred our first litter, there was no internet but we still did painstaking research, reading books, talking to more experienced breeders and generally finding out as much as possible before taking the plunge. If it was possible for us to do that much back then, it's so much easier now there is so much information available at just the click of a mouse.

Jane, so if one has a Reprobate  mostly working strain cocker, like my darling, but would like a show strain, but doesn't show or know these high quality home show breeders who do not advertise, is there a means of contacting them? Does one go through the local breed club?

Yes that's what we always recommend - contact the Breed Clubs (there's a national club as well as numerous regional clubs) and also attend some shows to get to know some breeders in advance. We try to cover all this and more in our section on How To Find A Reputable breeder which appears twice on the forum (once in the FAQ section and again on the Looking For A Breeder board): http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=48072.0

[aberry]

quote]I'm sorry but I would call them bad breeders or maybe ignorant breeders because they went into doing something which bears a heavy responsibility without doing any prior research. Loving your dogs is just not enough. '[/quote]

Jane - I could not agree with you more .... feeling like I do about my dogs and all those that contribute to this web-site .... but as owners of one of the most popular breeds in this country we are the tip of the iceberg  ...  how we out-reach the more ignorant I dont know.   Another friend has an Australian Shepherd ... there are so few of them in this country, comparatively, that she is known to nearly all the other owners - so they keep a close eye on who is breeding what - if we had the luxury of starting from that basis it would be a different ball game?? 

[Oliver21508]

I prefer to get my dogs from one-off breeders who have researched the stud and breeding. This allows the pups to be very socialised and the breeder concentrates on those puppies only. I wouldn't like to get my dog from kennels, or people with lots of dogs, because the pups are not usually focused on so much. Ollie came from a breeder that bred her pet bitch to a very good stud dog, and the breeder knew all the ins and outs of health testing and breeding etc.

[Cob-Web]

I prefer to get my dogs from one-off breeders who have researched the stud and breeding.

Unfortunately, these are few and far between   

The commitment required to research health, temperament, and invest the time and money required to produce a healthy litter is very significant - and in my experience, someone who "has a one-off litter" is less likely to be prepared to make the sacrifices required than a dedicated hobbyist who is committed to welfare and improvement and has extensive experience and knowledge based on their involvement in activities and network of the breed. 

IMO, your assumption that breeders who have "lots of dogs" don't focus on the puppies so much is a generalisation.......
an ethical hobby breeder will not have numerous litters at once, and will ensure that they give the puppies the time and socialisation experiences they need, but will often have a number of dogs 

[Jane S]

I prefer to get my dogs from one-off breeders who have researched the stud and breeding.

IMO, your assumption that breeders who have "lots of dogs" don't focus on the puppies so much is a generalisation.......
an ethical hobby breeder will not have numerous litters at once, and will ensure that they give the puppies the time and socialisation experiences they need, but will often have a number of dogs 

Exactly, we only ever have one litter at a time (and usually only one litter a year) - our litters are in our home and certainly don't lack for attention despite the fact we have more than one adult dog. I can't see that the "one-off" pet breeder is superior in any way but each to their own

[Brimbeck(Dyllan)]

I prefer to get my dogs from one-off breeders who have researched the stud and breeding.

IMO, your assumption that breeders who have "lots of dogs" don't focus on the puppies so much is a generalisation.......
an ethical hobby breeder will not have numerous litters at once, and will ensure that they give the puppies the time and socialisation experiences they need, but will often have a number of dogs 

Exactly, we only ever have one litter at a time (and usually only one litter a year) - our litters are in our home and certainly don't lack for attention despite the fact we have more than one adult dog. I can't see that the "one-off" pet breeder is superior in any way but each to their own

Experience counts for an awful lot.

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

I actually think it can be a good thing when the breeder has several adult dogs, especially as a few will tend to be related. We got to meet Bries dam, auntie and half sis from a previous litter. It was good to get an idea of how Brie may turn out and it also meant that Brie had grown up around other adult dogs. She didnt bat an eyelid when we turned up with Jack.
I think when you meet several of the breeders other dogs it gives you a good indication of what they are like as an owner. You get to see the breeder with their dogs and you can tell if their happy, confident and well looked after or not.