Back Yard Breeders

[mark1]

I haven't posted very often on the forum but have read a lot and posted a few pics of Molly but there are a couple of things that I wanted some feedback about. Molly is a two and half year old blue roan and an absolute delight, she is our perfect dog and we started talking last year about getting another bitch as a companion for Molly. We decided to breed her and would then keep her daughter and we had a lot of interest from friends, family and lovers of Molly who would been keen to have a puppy. We did all of the research and found a stud dog who's owner had the same philosophy as us and who had a dog with an equally lovely nature as Molly. Molly was obviously a maiden bitch and he was unproven which was strongly not recommended in every book that we read. We took Molly over to the stud dog to meet him before her season and they got on fantastically. This continued when she came into season and they had a fantastic courtship and a mating eventually that sadly never materialised in puppies but it was all round a positive experience. After the mating I found COL and thought this would be a perfect source of information and I asked a few specific questions about the pregnancy. I have to say the vast majority of replies were really helpful and although there were a couple of slightly patronising answers it was very useful.
I did look at the breeding section and was a little dismayed to see that we would be described as a 'back yard breeder' and found it slightly insulting that unless you have some long term interest in Cockers you wouldn't be classed as a reputable breeder. I have no interest in showing dogs, thats a personal thing, and so would not breed purely to improve the show standard of the breed but the temperament and health issues were paramount before we ever decided to breed. We thought long and hard before we decided to attempt to breed Molly and did a ridiculous amount of research about health issues surrounding Cockers. So I guess the question that has been going around my head is what is a reputable breeder? When we decided to breed Molly we were prepared to lose money if needed to ensure that she got everything she needed and the puppies got the very best start in life. Molly would have one litter, maybe two depending on how things went and then would stay with us forever. I have seen adverts for bitches who were looking for pet homes as they were retiring from breeding and wondered is this standard practice or just done by puppy farmers. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I probably wouldn't agree with the way some 'reputable' breeders keep their dogs but wouldn't  begin to advise them about whats right and wrong because I realise that its purely an opinion. We probably will try again in the future but for now have decided to get another pup and have gone back to the breeder from where we got Molly as it's the next best to having our own. We pick her up on Saturday and can't wait, and Molly will have her friend/sister and I'm sure many years of fun ahead of them.
I'm sorry if this comes across as a rant but I just felt that by deciding to breed our Cocker we were somewhat stereotyped.

[lisalh]

Hi Mark congrats on your new addition - I cant wait to see pics of them both together.

  Sorry you had a negative experience on here- I tend to avoid the breeder threads as dont know enough about it tbh.  YOu sound like you obviously care about your dog and I am sure the others on here would not have meant to be patronising or stereotype you but it is v v hard to get your point across on a forum so that it can only be interpreted in the way you mean and with the best will in the world it is very easy to come across 'wrong' iyswim .

[mcphee]

Didn't come across as a rant to me at all. Rufus was from a so called back yard breeder, and knowing what some people thought about this was an issue for me to begin with, but as I know people who have used so called reputable breeders and had problems, I decided that I would ignore the label. I know a couple of people who like you find the term insulting, and for that reason do not use the forum. Whilst I understand fully the strategy behind trying to restrict breeding to people who know what they are doing and will protect the health and welfare of the gene pool-(and by whose definition?-my friend was offered KC accredited breeder status after one litter) it is in my view wrong to label those who happen to be amateur or just starting out with such a negative tag. It is divisive and if it causes offence, it will not meet the aims of education.
So pleased you have found a second to join Molly who sounds perfect. I will be interested to see which lucky pup joins your happy caring household.

[Jane S]

Whilst I understand fully the strategy behind trying to restrict breeding to people who know what they are doing and will protect the health and welfare of the gene pool-(and by whose definition?-my friend was offered KC accredited breeder status after one litter) it is in my view wrong to label those who happen to be amateur or just starting out with such a negative tag. It is divisive and if it causes offence, it will not meet the aims of education.

I'm not going to apologise for using the term BYB in my article on Reputable Breeders referred to by Mark - the damage they do to the breed is horrifying even if some may have good (if misguided) intentions. The fact is too many puppies are being bred - rescue centres are overflowing and many new breeders who start out with the best of intentions can contribute to the rescue problem unless they really understand the responsibilities and commitment necessary to every puppy they breed for the whole of that puppy's life. That's why it often appears we discourage owners of pet bitches from breeding but really we just want people to understand that breeding a litter can have far-reaching consequences and can be very hard work and very traumatic too (when things go wrong as can happen)

However I would not class someone who did all the necessary research first and did ALL the right things, including taking long term (ie life-long) responsibility for puppies bred as a BYB. We have several non-show breeders who use this forum who do all this and more and are not in my eyes BYBs - they may not show their dogs but they are genuinely passionate about the breed and will have taken the time to learn as much if not more about genetic diseases etc than some show breeders (or working breeders come to that). Anyone who genuinely wants to learn how to breed responsibly and has a genuine commitment to the well-being of the breed will get plenty of information and encouragement here if they stick around On the other hand, we have had in the past members who are out and out BYBs, who breed for the money and tell lies about how many litters they have and what health tests they do. These kind of breeders are not welcome here and if that makes us divisive or unwelcoming, than so be it


PS Mark, I've changed the title of your thread as the discussion is not really about your new arrival. Looking forward to seeing pics of Molly's companion when she comes home

[Nicola]

found it slightly insulting that unless you have some long term interest in Cockers you wouldn't be classed as a reputable breeder.

I don't think you're ranting at all but I do find this a bit surprising. Do you really think that people who do not have a long-term interest in a breed of dog should be breeding them? I don't see how anyone who does not have a long term interest in and care deeply about their breed (as a whole, not just their own particular dog) could be considered as being reputable. Otherwise all you're doing is producing puppies for the sake of it and there are already far too many people doing that.

Good breeders are not just in it for one or two litters out of their pet dog, they have a genuine interest in their breed and have long-term breeding plans in order to produce the best specimens they can in order to benefit the breed and improve it in the long term. They have in-depth knowledge of their dog's pedigrees and the lines behind them and choose breeding partners based on a lot of research into strengths and weaknesses and compatibility. They fully health test all their breeding dogs and use health tested studs. They can provide back-up for puppy buyers in terms of knowledge and advice and will take back any puppy they have bred at any point in its life, no matter what the circumstances.    

Having a nice pet with a nice temperament who appears to be healthy isn't enough to make you a reputable breeder. The vast majority of pet dogs meet these criteria, they are all lovely and special in their own way but that doesn't mean they should all be bred from. There are thousands upon thousands of pet puppies being bred in this country and there are not enough homes for all of them. Rescue centres are full of unwanted dogs, both pedigree and crossbred, and there really is no need for yet more people to breed their pets just to produce yet more pet dogs for the sake of it. In this current economic climate even truly good breeders are having issues finding good homes for all their puppies and really it boils down to what kind of potential puppy buyer is going to choose a pup from unproven, un-health-tested parents - any prospective owner who has done their research is going to want a pup from the best breeder they can find.

[mark1]

Thanks for the replies, it's a very interesting discussion. I think everyone would agree that a lifelong commitment to the puppy is crucial. I'd be interested in peoples views about the lifelong commitment towards a breeding bitch.

[Jane S]

Thanks for the replies, it's a very interesting discussion. I think everyone would agree that a lifelong commitment to the puppy is crucial. I'd be interested in peoples views about the lifelong commitment towards a breeding bitch.

Life long commitment does not mean keeping a puppy or adult bitch yourself - it means you as the breeder are responsible for finding a new, permanent home if a puppy home does not work out or if you decide to rehome one of your own older bitches. There is a clear difference between the commercial breeder/puppy farmer/BYB who off-loads unwanted breeding bitches onto rescues and a responsible breeder who may occasionally look for a carefully vetted, retirement home for one of their bitches (and who will still be available for lifelong back up when that bitch goes to a new home). The latter is still showing their continuing commitment to ensuring their bitches have a great home (even if it is not with the breeder) whereas the former really couldn't care less.

[lindseyp]

What a lovely post mark1 & I applaud you for posting  Personally, it doesn't come across as a rant in any way & a lot of what you says make perfect sense! If you're a 'back yard breeder' then so am I too (I let my Purdey have a litter of pups but I must add that was pre - COL days & although I don't regret having the litter I don't know if I would again because despite all the test available & giving all the best care you can, things can still go wrong & do  ...2 of our pups had microthalmia (small eye) & our little Tinkerbelle has been left blind because of it  ....my penance that I live with every day. The reason we bread from Purdey, was for much the same reasons as yourself & wanted to possibly get involved with showing. With guidance ,help & support from experienced, successful, respected breeders we found the most wonderful stud dog, successfully mated & Purdey had 9 beautiful pups from a textbook whelp. I had secretly hoped for an orange roan to keep & show & our gorgeous Livie was born (just one...orange & white  ) but because of the demands of having a blind pup, Purdey being fairly poorly with numerous illnesses over 2 years, I feel that Livie has  been denied the amount of training/one2one she could of done with shame on me I know  We have had a go at showing but it is really not for her (whether that be lack of training/experience or that it is just not for her I don't know) ....she is happier running about the forest hunting out rabbits, I worship all my girls (sounds extreme but is true!) but spent many a time in tears during the 1st year as it was so hard (especially wee Tinker  ) & OH said one had to go ...........my answer was for him to chose which one because I couldn't ...... we still have all 3  & thankfully all worked out ok ....just!!!
The answer to your question of 'what is a reputable breeder' is a difficult one & what is acceptable to one person may not be to another .....you must trust your own instincts & decide what 'you feel' is right. I have seen & heard so much in the relatively short time I have been involved with cocker's & not all of it good & some of it has been a real eye opener.
Good luck with Molly's new sister & I wish you many, many happy years together (but my advice if you do decide to breed in the future....do your homework over & over & over again. You sound like a big softy like me mark & although it was the most magical experience I've had the privilege to be part of .....even surpasses the birth of my own 2 girls  there can be sadness, heartache & stress involved too.) Since finding & joining COL I've decided not to breed from Livie & has influenced my future personal plans ........ was very ignorant of the darker side of dog breeding/puppy farms etc
Don't be too hard on other COLers if their opinions seem strong .....a lot of them really do know their stuff & truly only have the welfare of cocker's (& all animals I think  ) & if you use the good advice given you really wont go wrong. All the best. Lindsey x
(phew what a long post    )

[vixen]

I have two super working cocker bitches who have  excellent pedigrees and delightful temperaments.  When they were coming up to 2 I did think about breeding from them to keep a puppy from their lines.  After considering it, I felt it would be irresponsible to do so.  If I KNEW each girl would produce just one puppy each, fine, I would keep them but bitches rarely produce just the one puppy and then I would have the responsibility of finding homes for the rest.  I just felt that there are SO many puppies in the world that need homes I just couldn't contribute to that number. I decided that I would have both my girls spayed and then if I do want another puppy to go back to the breeder and get a similarly bred dog (as you yourself are doing). My dogs' breeder is much more of an expert than I could ever be.  

[jann]

Thanks for the replies, it's a very interesting discussion. I think everyone would agree that a lifelong commitment to the puppy is crucial. I'd be interested in peoples views about the lifelong commitment towards a breeding bitch.

I have 2 ex breeding dogs. I got Flo from a responsible breeder who I am still in touch with, on the agreement that if I ever found I could not keep her,she ( the breeder )would find another home for her so that she would always know where she is.

Barnaby is from Many Tears( probably from a puppy farm.) MT have taken responsibility for him instead of the breeder, and therefore if I found I could not keep him for any reason, MT would find him a home,

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

. We did all of the research and found a stud dog who's owner had the same philosophy as us and who had a dog with an equally lovely nature as Molly. Molly was obviously a maiden bitch and he was unproven which was strongly not recommended in every book that we read.

It says on other posts that the stud dog was proven and the stud dogs owner your mentor  

Just my personal opinion but I have nothing against first time breeders as everyone has to start somewhere  

What I do have more of a problem with is people just breeding their dog for the sake of it (im not talking about you here) but the whole "I have a pretty dog so im going to put it to the neighbours pretty dog and we will have pretty puppies" there are enough pretty dogs and puppies sat in rescues, were not in sort supply of dogs and I dont see why breeding has to be done by people who dont have a huge interest in the breed.

Good breeders are worth their weight in gold, they are trying to improve the health, temprement, abilities, reputation and welfare of the breed we all love. They breed so that cockers will still be around in generations to come and breed with the objective of improving them.

People who dont do the genetic tests and other health tests, who are not in a position to have a waiting list and offer life time support to their dogs and are not breeding to improve the breed just shouldnt be doing it IMHO


Can I ask did you get your cocker and was the stud dog DNA tested for PRA and FN 

[mark1]

I have to be honest and say that I was asked a couple of direct questions at the time about the stud dog and was unsure about motives so didn't want to be explicit about things that would give away the identity of the dog as I was respecting their privacy as I hadn't spoken to them and didn't think people were keeping notes.
Both dogs fully tested.

[emilyjw]

I think the hardest part would be finding good responsible homes, it amazes me how many young dogs end up in pounds or handed in to rescues. To me a good breeder does the health checks, homechecks potential homes - gets vets references etc, offers a life-time of back-up and if it was me i would want to keep in contact and know that if there are problems that the dog would come back to me. I think temprement is also very important and to me more important than show standards. I often wonder how many of the breeders of the dogs that we get into the rescue know that that is what has happened to them.... we get lots of pedigree dogs and some of them must be from caring/ well intentioned breeders.

There really are too many dogs out there, we had a staggering number of puppies in with three litters being born in the rescue and i think because of this I don't think I could ever breed puppies myself   People will always buy pedigree dogs from breeders and i think it's important that they get them from reputable breeders, the heartache of puppy farmed dogs, and others that are just treated as cash cows is 

[mcphee]

If the intention is to restrict the supply of puppies only to those bred by reputable breeders is there any provision in the strategy for replacing breeders who retire? I would like to see the kennel club take much more care about encouraging responsible breeding.  It seems to me that the homing of puppies is key, and there must be a risk that if the supply is restricted, the market will replace it. The market by definition is about profit, and has little interest in costly measures like home vetting. Whilst lots of people will take on the many puppies abandoned to rescues, others prefer to have a dog of a specific breed and I am not sure how they can be educated differently. If they are not deemed suitable by a reputable breeder they will go else where. Of course it would be good if people did not decide to breed from their bitches. We are not however getting the message to them very effectively because there are no sanctions to back up the strategy. BYBs are it seems to me an easier target than puppy farmers. Until there is a serious system making breeders responsible for insurance, health checks and chipping, and first registration for licensing, the good intentions of the strategy will be difficult to fulfil.

[emilyjw]

I agree education is the best policy, people seem to think they have a given right to have a puppy whether they have the right home or not, work full-time etc. I remember reading recently an email about heat magazine where there was a feature on xmas gifts some celeb (possibly alexandra burke or somebody like that) said they wanted a Bichon Frise pup and in the same way the magazine had listed a shop and a price listed a well known pup sale website with an estimated price. Nothing about responsible ownership, dog being for life etc. it was treated in the same way as an iPhone.

I agree with something Jane said that if a breeder is breeding reputably, health tests, things done properly they are not a back-yard-breeder, but a reputable breeder. A reputable breeder isn't just about being a show breeder.