Back Yard Breeders

[emilyjw]

I may be not too bright but I still can't see why a 'reputable' breeder produces puppies and it's ok and I (a byb) have puppies and it's not. What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?
I wanted to breed my pet bitch to produce a dog for me and the reamaining litter for pets. I researched health issues, I vet checked twice(health and breeding condition), I looked at both pedigrees and was happy with COI, I picked a stud that had fantastic temperment, I would have vetted prospective owners with a microscope, I would have happily taken back any pups that wouldn't settle/had issues (and given those owners the sell on fee, because there always is one)I would have spent whatever it cost to make sure the litter was raised as well as it could be. Is my motivation for producing a litter wrong?
As an aside I have never been 'vetted' by a breeder and always bought from KC registered breeders. I think its sometimes different what people say and what they do.

I think a few people have said they wouldn't class you as a BYB, you are doing everything (from what i can see) that a reputable breeder does. To me, rather than the tags of BYB, commercial breeder, hobby breeder, show breeder etc, it's about looking for a good reputable breeder that does it for the love of the dogs with the right intentions rather than to fund a holiday etc. So doing the health checks, researching the breed and potential issues, looking at the side effects of not spaying a bitch, risks in labour etc.

just to add I would define a BYB as one who breeds litters for financial gain or goes into it because it would be nice and does very little to research what they are doing.

[Nicola]

I may be not too bright but I still can't see why a 'reputable' breeder produces puppies and it's ok and I (a byb) have puppies and it's not. What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?

I think that has been answered, there are too many dogs being bred in this country already, there are not enough homes for all the existing dogs and all the pet puppies that are being produced so there really is not a need for your average pet owner who isn't all that interested or involved in the breed to produce yet more puppies just for the pet market with no real aim or purpose other than that. The motivation of your average BYB is for themselves -  because they want a puppy like their pet or just to have a litter of cute pups to sell, the motivation of a good breeder is long-term to produce better dogs to improve the breed as a whole, be that in health, temperament and conformation and for working ability in the case of working Cockers.

The thing is though people will at the end of the day do as they see fit and if someone is morally and ethically ok with breeding a litter from their pet for the pet market then there isn't really much anyone can do about that. If we weren't in the situation we are with far too many dogs being bred and not enough homes then if pet owners went about things the right way and bred a litter then no, that wouldn't be a terrible thing but unfortunately we are are not in that ideal world. Hopefully there will always be at least some breeders who breed with the long-term betterment of the breed in mind, who ensure that the breed remains true to type and fit for purpose and seek to preserve and improve it for the future, even if they are in a minority.

I vet checked twice(health and breeding condition),

Having a dog vet checked isn't the same as health testing with DNA tests, gonioscopy, hip x-rays etc.

[Londonwriter]

I may be not too bright but I still can't see why a 'reputable' breeder produces puppies and it's ok and I (a byb) have puppies and it's not. What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?

I don't know... How do you improve a show breed? This perplexed me when I was researching breeds before getting Toq.

I know how you improve working Cockers - Toq was bred to be a good bit of shooting equipment, kind of like 'breed your own shotgun'. That's why I like working line dogs - you know the criteria they were bred to and they're beautiful because form follows function.

The Kennel Club standard is subjective so I don't understand how you improve a dog towards it beyond breeding out genetic disease. After all, Toq has essence of spaniel. He's merry and busy, has floppy ears and is smaller than a Springer - but he'd get laughed out of a show ring...

Is it like Plato's Theory of Forms (sorry for bringing philosophy into this) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms. Should a perfect show Cocker spaniel be the ur Cocker? That when people look at it, it fits society's collective image of a Cocker spaniel?

Can someone explain? I'm nosy.

[Prepares to be flamed out of the air...]

[mark1]

As I said earlier in the thread all health checks had been carried out and without being argumentative I disagree that the question has been answered. What is improving the breed and what is 'fit for purpose'? What purpose?

[mark1]

Totally agree about working Cockers

[mcphee]

If one is not breeding for show or working, is not the purpose to produce healthy pups of good temperament who can make good pets?

[lindseyp]

What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?

US probably!! ....supply & demand - that's why were all her on COL now because we all love cockers & we all 'chose' to have one (whether from pup/bred or rescued) & the same goes for every other breed out there. Us humans choose a dog we like the look of & that 'fits in' with the life we lead.
Where that dog comes from is up to us.
You don't need 'permission' to breed from your girl & if you've done all the homework you can (& more) & have the support of an experienced breeder ( they are invaluable   ) then you have every right to do it, if that is your choice...... but the advice you get from fellow Colers, with an encyclopedic knowledge of 'all things cocker' is good advice & only given because they know & they care.

(if I could just mention little Tinker once again ....bless her The condition she was born with 'usually' affects all pups born in a litter. We were lucky (if you can call it that?) only two had it & normally the litter is PTS    ..thankfully we didn't have to make that decision but I don't know if I could of & we'd of been left with 9 blind pups    In all the homework/research/talking to breeders did we ever hear of this condition & the specialist (very well respected & qualified ophthalmologist down here in the south) said it was 'one of those things'. Unfortunately there are many more 'one of those things' out there & i just want to pass on my experience to you so you can be informed & prepared as i wasn't )

[Ninasmum]

I would like to see the kennel club take much more care about encouraging responsible breeding.  

Ditto here.    I long for the day (naively) that the KC start 'policing' breeders. 

But the KC is at heart a private club with no legal powers of inspection or enforcement. The only power they have would be to withold their registration services from breeders to stop them registering litters (which happens to some extent) but of course that does not stop these breeders breeding as they then just move to the commercial registries (like the DLRC) or don't register at all (you only have to look at the free ads to see that many pups being bred today are not KC registered or are registered elsewhere & it seems many buyers are happy to buy such pups).

Jane, i just think that if the KC is a private club with no legal powers for inspection etc then how come it is respectable to take the puppy registration fees/transfer of ownership fees etc without ever checking out (at least randomly) the breeders?  It just seems (imo) they are happy to take in the funds but unless i am missing something give nothing in return. 

[vixen]

What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?

You don't need 'permission' to breed from your girl

Whilst legally you have the 'right' to breed from your bitch and don't need anyone's ' permission' I do feel that ethically we do NOT have the 'right' to breed just because we can, when there are already too many puppies and not enough homes for them  

[Jane S]

Is it like Plato's Theory of Forms (sorry for bringing philosophy into this) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms. Should a perfect show Cocker spaniel be the ur Cocker? That when people look at it, it fits society's collective image of a Cocker spaniel?

I think this is for another thread really - we've had threads before where the various merits of working v show type Cockers have been discussed ad infinitum so if you want to start another one to discuss this, feel free

[lindseyp]

What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?

You don't need 'permission' to breed from your girl

Whilst legally you have the 'right' to breed from your bitch and don't need anyone's ' permission' I do feel that ethically we do NOT have the 'right' to breed just because we can, when there are already too many puppies and not enough homes for them  

Oooooh vixen, that's taken my comments completely out of context there .......bloomin cheek.......but i shall just rise above it  

[mark1]

What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?

You don't need 'permission' to breed from your girl

Whilst legally you have the 'right' to breed from your bitch and don't need anyone's ' permission' I do feel that ethically we do NOT have the 'right' to breed just because we can, when there are already too many puppies and not enough homes for them  

I totally agree, how do 'reputable' breeders decide when there are enough homes for them to have a litter?

[Jane S]

Jane, i just think that if the KC is a private club with no legal powers for inspection etc then how come it is respectable to take the puppy registration fees/transfer of ownership fees etc without ever checking out (at least randomly) the breeders?  It just seems (imo) they are happy to take in the funds but unless i am missing something give nothing in return. 

Well I don't know about "respectable" - the KC provides services (ie litter registration and a traceable pedigree database) in return for a fee & those fees goes to funding all the KC's other activities (including funding health research) I think if we want a KC that would physically all inspect breeders (not just ABS members) and only register pups from from fully health tested parents etc, then we would have to accept that the KC would lose all the breeders that would not want this which would mean the KC's income would plummet and the KC would then need to find some other way of replacing that income (which I suspect is the real reason they won't do this). On the one hand, I would love only "good" breeders to be able to use the KC reg system but on the other hand, I find the fact they do register not so good breeders quite useful as their activities are then traceable (due to the publicly available nature of litter registrations) so we can see what they are doing (which we couldn't if they did not use the KC). It's a difficult one

[vixen]

Sorry lindseyp the comment was not directed at you, sorry if you felt it was.
It is just how I feel personally and why I chose to have my girls spayed,
Apologies again 

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?

You don't need 'permission' to breed from your girl

Whilst legally you have the 'right' to breed from your bitch and don't need anyone's ' permission' I do feel that ethically we do NOT have the 'right' to breed just because we can, when there are already too many puppies and not enough homes for them  

I totally agree, how do 'reputable' breeders decide when there are enough homes for them to have a litter?

reputable breeders have large waiting lists and no need to advertise their litters. There puppies have homes before the bitch is even mated.

As has already been said there are that many dogs in rescue IMHO the only people who should be breeding are those with long term plans on how they will keep the breed going for future generations and keep it as healthy and true to type as possible.

People who are breeding their pets without an interest in the breed and just breeding a one off litter I dont understand or see the point in. Why put their bitchs through it, what is there to gain