Our show Cocker has working dog in her pedigree

[mark1]

I'm sure that someone can clear this one up for us. Our show Cocker puppy has a G G Grandad that is FT.CH. First of all does that make him a working Cocker and is that ok to have that in her pedigree. The breeder didn't put the F.T.CH in her pedigree but we came across him on another pedigree. Just wondering if this is dodgy or not.

[spanielcrazy]

Who says show breds can't be FTCHs?   

Granddad may be a working cocker, you'd have to look at his pedigree to know for sure.

Don't really know if it's dodgy or not without knowing the reasons why a worker and show bred were crossed

[stephremon]

could just be a show bred that someone has trained their ass off with to get FTCH??

[Jane S]

I'm sure that someone can clear this one up for us. Our show Cocker puppy has a G G Grandad that is FT.CH. First of all does that make him a working Cocker and is that ok to have that in her pedigree. The breeder didn't put the F.T.CH in her pedigree but we came across him on another pedigree. Just wondering if this is dodgy or not.

Yes a dog with the title of FTCH would be a working Cocker - there are no show-bred FT CHs and are never likely to be in this country anyway. It means your puppy is mixed show and working breeding (but probably more show than working if there is just the one working ancestor). It's not necessarily dodgy as such although generally those who breed seriously for show or working purposes will not mix the lines together so it tends to be those breeding for the pet market who will mix both types together (and some may not even be aware they are doing this if they don't have an in depth knowledge of pedigrees)

[mark1]

Thanks for that, helpful. I think there is more than just one working dog in there the more we check the pedigree. We did ask the breeder the question, as Poppys dad looked like he had working in him but we were assured that she was 'full' show type. Not that it makes any difference to how we feel about Poppy as we love her to bits but we just feel a bit let down.

[Jane S]

Thanks for that, helpful. I think there is more than just one working dog in there the more we check the pedigree. We did ask the breeder the question, as Poppys dad looked like he had working in him but we were assured that she was 'full' show type. Not that it makes any difference to how we feel about Poppy as we love her to bits but we just feel a bit let down.

I can understand that - puppy buyers have the right to expect their breeders to be knowledgable and truthful about the dogs they are breeding from but sadly some are not (and some may have good intentions but just not realise the difference between the two types). Poppy is lovely though and if she's part working, she may well have a more easily manageable coat than a show Cocker (looking on the bright side )

[babushka]

Why don't you post her pedigree on here? then us with workers can tell you who's who.

[mark1]

Why don't you post her pedigree on here? then us with workers can tell you who's who.
[/q]




Will do, haven't recieved the pedigree yet we just know the parents and have done the research from that. As soon as we get it I'll put it on. Thanks.

[Joules]

Coco is a show cocker but has a couple of Workers in her pedigree too.    She came from a commercial breeder though (not a puppy farm but if I knew then what I do now...........) and I always understood that was how they got liver show cockers.   Sadly in Coco's case it has not meant her coat is any more manageable but she is probably as "active" as a working type 

[mark1]

Thanks for cheering me up on that one 

[Joules]

Thanks for cheering me up on that one 

Yeah, sorry about that    I think there are quite a few show types with some working in their pedigree.  I know Annette's Buddy is another one 

[stuffster]

Hi Mark

I had the same surprise when researching Purdey's pedigree and found several working dogs in there, which explains why she is so energetic! Like you say, it doesnt make us love her any less, but do feel a teeny bit cheated by the breeder! Oh to have known then what I know now!

[september]

Roxys mum is a working type and her dad a show type.  She looks like a show type unless you put her next to one and then you can see the difference!! She has much less coat than a show type, which I'm glad about! She is also a little crazy which I blame on her working side!!

[vixen]

 I am sure there is someone more knowledgeable than me who may tell you if I am right or wrong but I have always thought that the show cocker originated from the working cocker. So, if you think about it, all show cockers have worker in their pedigree if you look back far enough
I am talking many,many,many generations back, of course.
Perhaps your breeder didn't feel they needed to inform you as predominantly the pedigree is show type and the puppy displays all the characteristics of a show cocker.
To become a F.T. Ch, a dog has to be very biddable and have brains so to me that is a desirable trait to inherit.
In theory, there is no reason why working type and show type cocker can not be bred together as they can both be K.C. registered cocker spaniels.  It is just that serious breeders tend to keep the two types separate.

[JohnW]

I am sure there is someone more knowledgeable than me who may tell you if I am right or wrong but I have always thought that the show cocker originated from the working cocker. So, if you think about it, all show cockers have worker in their pedigree if you look back far enough
I am talking many,many,many generations back, of course.
Perhaps your breeder didn't feel they needed to inform you as predominantly the pedigree is show type and the puppy displays all the characteristics of a show cocker.
To become a F.T. Ch, a dog has to be very biddable and have brains so to me that is a desirable trait to inherit.
In theory, there is no reason why working type and show type cocker can not be bred together as they can both be K.C. registered cocker spaniels.  It is just that serious breeders tend to keep the two types separate.

As far as I am aware nearly all cocker lines will descend from a handfull of dogs that were the foundation of the breed, By what I can gather from these books a small dog called Obo is seen as the cornerstone of the breed, both working and show. But looking at pictures of him he does look very working. I would guess Jane Will probably shed more light onto the history of breed. The breed standard was originally set out by working kennels of old, I do wonder though if they had actually intended for the 2 distinct camps we have now from that breed standard they chartered all those years ago but I guess that is something we will never know now.

As far as cocker's with both sides in their pedigrees go, Generally it is frowned upon and you just have to looking through any of the many threads on breeding to find out what peoples thoughts are from many sides. In years gone by we as a society just wanted dogs for either showing, working (gundog work) or just a pet (in general). We now seem to be demanding from our dogs as we seek more recreational and increasingly competitive sports to do with our dogs such as agility, flyball, canix, working trials and no doubt other sports. Agility for example is growing at a very fast rate and its becoming very competitive especially at top level. competitors are now seeking dogs of small stature to compete in the easier small grade, thus the smaller bred cocker which is actually smaller than most cocker's are very sought after especially from a cocker that has working drive in him/her but ideally not to be too scent driven. So who knows we can have cocker's being bred for (sporting) ability too in years to come but without the hunting drive of the typical worker yet more athletic than the typical show cocker. This of course is not myself saying it should or shouldn't happen I am just observing what seems to be happening now. Such is the demands of society.