Why do breeders Endorse?

[6thSense]

I fully support endorsements. I think it's very responsible of the breeder. My Dru is endorsed, but if I wish to breed later I could request it lifted. Providing I had proof of health tests and temp etc. I personally as a relative newbie to showing and breeding am completely happy with that and would want my breeders help in such matters anyway whether endorsed or not. I will add I have no plans to do any such thing with him at the mo, but you never know what the future will hold. If I did have another litter each and every pup of mine would be endorsed for sure.

[karen488]

Good thread. I used to think endorsements were a bit controlling, in that you've paid a lot for a dog that is then controlled by someone else. Ironically Darcey doesn't have them but don't think I will breed from her.

[6thSense]

Good thread. I used to think endorsements were a bit controlling, in that you've paid a lot for a dog that is then controlled by someone else. Ironically Darcey doesn't have them but don't think I will breed from her.

No I don't see it as controlling at all and actually see it as a sign of a very responsible breeder. I respect a breeder who endorses. obviously as I'm showing and may wish to breed in the future I would need to know that it could be lifted, but am perfectly happy for it to be there in the first place even if I know the breeder well. They are simply covering their own backs and looking after the safety of their pups. I wouldn't want to breed in the wrong circumstances anyway. I see it as a very positive thing.

[karen488]

Sorry 6th sense. I wasn't clear enough. That's what I used to think but now this thread has made me see the reasoning around it all I quite agree.

[6thSense]

Sorry 6th sense. I wasn't clear enough. That's what I used to think but now this thread has made me see the reasoning around it all I quite agree.

No that's ok sorry. That's great to hear. It really is a good thing in my eyes and something I only became familiar with through showing, but something I very much believe in. 

[Christal]

I respect a breeder who endorses. obviously as I'm showing and may wish to breed in the future I would need to know that it could be lifted,

I think everyone can agree with endorsements that will be lifted if the breeder is happy that you are showing, all health tests have been done etc.

What I didn't, and still don't, understand is the breeders who state that they will not lift the endorsement UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

 I've seen adverts for puppies with this stated, which is why I asked the question in the first place.   I find it really strange and just wondered if there was a particular reason for this.  From the answers it appears there isn't.

[6thSense]

To be honest with a pet dog that really wouldn't worry me. I think if you wish to show and breed all you need to do is look for one that isn't. 

[Jane S]

What I didn't, and still don't, understand is the breeders who state that they will not lift the endorsement UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

I've seen adverts for puppies with this stated, which is why I asked the question in the first place.   I find it really strange and just wondered if there was a particular reason for this.  From the answers it appears there isn't.

I thought we already said that you'd have to ask the breeders concerned what their reasons are?? I've already said why I wouldn't lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets but you said this wasn't what you meant so I'm at a loss really to understand what adverts you're referring to? Are you referring to puppies specifically being advertised for showing where endorsements wont be lifted? Can't say I've seen those kind of ads but then I generally avoid the free ad sites as I find them too depressing and not the best places to source a good breeder Also most good show breeders don't need to use those sites and are sensible enough not to advertise pups for show/breeding when this cannot be guaranteed.

[seaangler]

When we brought are Pupie (Gemma) the subject of endorsements came after a long discussion it was said that under the supervision and every thing in place as to health checks Etc  and the co-opperation from another breeder that lives near me that we would find a sire of the right choosing and then she would lift the endorsement(also the breeder would have the first pick)

[penfold]

What I didn't, and still don't, understand is the breeders who state that they will not lift the endorsement UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

I've seen adverts for puppies with this stated, which is why I asked the question in the first place.   I find it really strange and just wondered if there was a particular reason for this.  From the answers it appears there isn't.

I thought we already said that you'd have to ask the breeders concerned what their reasons are?? I've already said why I wouldn't lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets but you said this wasn't what you meant so I'm at a loss really to understand what adverts you're referring to? Are you referring to puppies specifically being advertised for showing where endorsements wont be lifted? Can't say I've seen those kind of ads but then I generally avoid the free ad sites as I find them too depressing and not the best places to source a good breeder Also most good show breeders don't need to use those sites and are sensible enough not to advertise pups for show/breeding when this cannot be guaranteed.

Agree. If a breeder is stating that they will never lift an endorsement and you really really want one of their pupiies then it really is a case of asking them directly .  It may be something as simple as they want to discourage any would be BYB etc and that they are ameniable to removing endorsements if certain conditions are met.  But if you don't ask then you'll never know :-)

[vixen]

I wouldn't lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets

I do not wish to breed but have been reading this debate with interest.  Could a refusal to lift endorsements  inadvertently have the opposite effect to what you intended?
Endorsements will not stop the determined owner, it just means the pups can't be KC registered.
A hypothetical scenario, owner buys a pup and agrees to endorsements as 'just wants a pet'. Later they would like to breed so asks breeder to lift endorsements.  Breeder refuses.  Owner still wants pups so decides to go ahead and maybe register with another body..  Thinks of a stud dog and sees no point using health tested KC stud ( doubtful his owner would allow anyway) so uses the obliging spaniel down the road ( he is also free).  The resulting pups are advertised in free press and sold at a bargain price (compared to KC reg litters) to unsuspecting owners.
This could be the start of a BYB as they have not had the expense of reputable breeders. 
I am not for one moment saying that this is acceptable and always happens, but I do think that endorsements will not stop a determined owner.
I am not 'having a go' at you Jane or any responsible breeders who put endorsements on their pups and when I get my next pup I WILL choose one such breeder.  

[karen488]

Could get shot down in flames for this but...I purposefully did not get Darcey from a "proper" breeder for a couple of reasons. Firstly our family cocker spaniel had come from a lovely family who had a litter and she was the loveliest dog. Secondly around 6 years ago we bought a Basset Hound from a reputable breeder. For several reasons (some fault on my behalf some on the breeders) the dog was a disaster and was sent back to the breeder. Finding a reputable breeder as a novice is a minefield. Darcey was bred by a vet owner. She had 2 cockers. Does agility etc. Darcey has a fantastic temperament. I bought from her mainly for these factors and trusted that the health of the puppies would be sound. I understand where these endorsements come from and agree with them. I understand that it is difficult to control responsible and supportive breeding. I think that we have been very lucky with our old family dog and with Darcey. But I do not believe that only "breeders" should breed.

[poppy1407]

You guys prob wont like what Im about to say but my opinion is I agree to a certain extent on endorsing dogs, however from what it seems from reading this thread is that owners of dogs that show their dogs think they effectively seem to have a right to breed over someone who does not show- is that correct. I see it as anyone has a right to breed from their dog providing all the measures are put in place such as health testing, good care of the puppies and responsible selling. I know show breeders say they breed to get a possible show dog to keep- but the word is "possible" all the litter mates get sold on. I know of large show kennels who have lots and lots of litters a year and the majority of pups get sold- So my question is how is this any better than a hobby breeder and what gives a breeder an automatic right beacause they show-
eg what if a family wanted to breed their dog to keep a puppy and health test ect. How is that any different to a show breeder keeping a puppy- the puppies are born for different reasons one as a pet one to show but it does not neccessarly mean the pups are not of good health and temp which after all that is what the main concern should be and not bettering their looks to meet breed standard!!!!! 

[Jane S]

But I do not believe that only "breeders" should breed.

Anybody who has a litter even just one litter is a breeder I just think we have way too many litters being born in this country and that there has been an explosion in BYB & commercial breeding (possibly due to the way the internet now makes it easy for such breeders to sell or attempt to sell their pups) I don't believe for one minute that good permanent homes exist for all these puppies - I know plenty of well-known reputable breeders who are not finding it easy to find good homes at the moment and many are putting off breeding because of this. That's why I don't feel anyone should be breeding just as an end in itself - the number of Cocker litters currently for sale on the free ad sites is staggering and really quite scary

Could a refusal to lift endorsements  inadvertently have the opposite effect to what you intended?
Endorsements will not stop the determined owner, it just means the pups can't be KC registered.

Yes of course you are right - endorsements do not stop someone who is determined to breed at all costs and I'm sure it does happen (although not to any of our puppies to our knowledge) The price of puppies registered with other commercial companies are not necessarily cheaper than KC reg puppies either I don't think the use of endorsements encourage people to breed irresponsibly though - they will do that with or without endorsements if they have that kind of mindset. Also nobody is forced to buy a puppy with endorsements - there are plenty of breeders who don't use them who are happy to sell to anyone, whether they want to breed in future or not.

[Jane S]

however from what it seems from reading this thread is that owners of dogs that show their dogs think they effectively seem to have a right to breed over someone who does not show- is that correct. I see it as anyone has a right to breed from their dog providing all the measures are put in place such as health testing, good care of the puppies and responsible selling.

No not true at all. Of course you're competely entitled to your opinion that anyone should be free to breed whatever their motives in breeding but I'm afraid I don't share that view and it's nothing to do with thinking I'm superior and have more right to breed than those that don't show - it's believing very strongly that there are too many litters being born for no good reason by people who have no interest in the breed apart from breeding them and that's not how it should be...