CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Health => Topic started by: Rubenkhan on September 23, 2010, 05:22:32 PM
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I have met a breeder that has not tested mum or dad of the pup I've see,I was wondering how common this blindness condition is an dif anyone has an idea of what percentage of dogs it effects?
Thanks
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I would advise to walk away...if neither sire/dam have been tested its inexcusable!
Sorry i don't know the percentages affected with PRA but hopefully in years to come (with responsible breeders health testing) this awful eye disease could be eradicated. ;)
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The breeder shows her dogs and apparently has been doing so for many years. She said that none of her dogs or litters have had this problem and she doesn't feel the need to have this test done. Is that something I should be concerned about?
Thanks
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My Dylan has cataracts and PRA he cannot have the op to remove them. He started last year and within 6months he had lost his sight.
If I where you I would walk away and then you won't go through the heartbreak that we have done with Dylan. It started when Dylan was 8yrs he is now 9. We did not have any health test certs from the breeder, did not know about them then. Know I am wiser thanks to the info on COL.
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The breeder shows her dogs and apparently has been doing so for many years.
Then she should be aware of the problem in the breed and tested her stock to maintain it's integrity and "PRA tested clear(?)" selling advantage! God this makes me mad!
She said that none of her dogs or litters have had this problem and she doesn't feel the need to have this test done. Is that something I should be concerned about?
I'd be very concerned TBH. If she doesn't test how the blazes does she KNOW her stock hasn't got a PRA problem? Ask her if she would put that in writing in case you had reason to go to court (that should put a flea in her ear!) >:(
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IMHO just because dogs are shown, it doesn't automatically follow they are healthier than dogs that aren't in the show ring. :huh: Sorry just my opinion but i would be concerned. ;) PRA Progressive Retinal Atrophy is a gradual decline with vision which leads to blindness. if you google this you can find all sorts of info. :D
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Sorry to say it but she sounds to me like a breeder who would not give much 'after sales' support if anything should go wrong.
Take care
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The breeder shows her dogs and apparently has been doing so for many years. She said that none of her dogs or litters have had this problem and she doesn't feel the need to have this test done. Is that something I should be concerned about?
Thanks
Oh that sounds familiar ::) ! One of mine was diagnosed at about 18 months old - notified the breeder just so they knew that 2 of their dogs were carriers. Was told in no uncertain terms that his eyes must be fine as his litter brother was being campaigned in the show ring very successfully :huh: They even repeated the mating the following year >:D
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The breeder shows her dogs and apparently has been doing so for many years. She said that none of her dogs or litters have had this problem and she doesn't feel the need to have this test done. Is that something I should be concerned about?
Thanks
Oh that sounds familiar ::) ! One of mine was diagnosed at about 18 months old - notified the breeder just so they knew that 2 of their dogs were carriers. Was told in no uncertain terms that his eyes must be fine as his litter brother was being campaigned in the show ring very successfully :huh: They even repeated the mating the following year >:D
That is so totally disgusting! >:D Sadly, this doesn't surprise me anymore. :'(
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Unless ALL breeders health tested it's impossible to tell how prevalent it actually is...
IMHO if you can eliminate ANY risk when buying a puppy then I would, and I wouldn't risk the heartbreak :'( (and I really really feel for Jessie_pup who bought an untested dog when testing wasn't common at all).
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Unless ALL breeders health tested it's impossible to tell how prevalent it actually is...
IMHO if you can eliminate ANY risk when buying a puppy then I would, and I wouldn't risk the heartbreak :'( (and I really really feel for Jessie_pup who bought an untested dog when testing wasn't common at all).
And still people are buying pups where there is no health testing . If I see a pup I ask if they had health test papers and often they do not know about the tests and look at you blankly.
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It's difficult to know the numbers exactly because so many cases go unreported, since the reporting is done to Optigen or the Cocker Spaniel club, so this does not take in pet dogs, unregistered dogs or untested dogs
What I can tell you is that in the US (where the numbers of cockers are much smaller) in 2007 there were 10% of Optigen tested found to be affected.
http://ecsca.org/optigenfig.html
In 1998, before Optigen testing according to a voluntary health survey, of 373 people who responded to the survey, there were 46 cases of PRA. (I have no idea what the percentage is :P)
http://ecsca.org/98healthsur.html
I would assume the percentages to be higher, perhaps much higher, than 10% due to the reasons above.
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When I was looking for a puppy I was told by one breeder that cocker spaniels do not need testing for PRA.
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When I was looking for a puppy I was told by one breeder that cocker spaniels do not need testing for PRA.
That's appalling IMO >:(
William is 6 years old and his dad was tested just after William was born, when testing was just beginning to become more commonplace and more easily available. William's dad is a PRA carrier and his owner publicised the fact and subsequently only used him at stud to Optigen tested clear bitches. You could argue that he shouldn't have been used at stud at all any more, but I think his exceptional temperament gave merit to him being used. I don't know William's PRA status, although I know a litter mate tested clear, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he is unaffected.
As time goes on and more Cockers are being tested I think there is increasingly little merit in breeding from dogs or bitches that are carriers. I'm prepared to be shot down in flames here, but surely as the years go by the gene pool of hereditarily clear or tested clear stock will get big enough to warrant breeding only from them?
I think it's wrong to breed from affected dogs or bitches, even if they're mated to a clear bitch or dog and the pedigrees are endorsed not for breeding. The puppies will be carriers and despite the endorsement there's nothing to stop their owners from breeding from them and simply not registering the litters with the KC.
There are loads of Cocker Spaniels in the area where I live and when I meet owners with puppies I ask them about health testing and I'm amazed at how few have any idea about it.
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When I was looking for a puppy I was told by one breeder that cocker spaniels do not need testing for PRA.
That's appalling IMO >:(
William is 6 years old and his dad was tested just after William was born, when testing was just beginning to become more commonplace and more easily available. William's dad is a PRA carrier and his owner publicised the fact and subsequently only used him at stud to Optigen tested clear bitches. You could argue that he shouldn't have been used at stud at all any more, but I think his exceptional temperament gave merit to him being used. I don't know William's PRA status, although I know a litter mate tested clear, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he is unaffected.
As time goes on and more Cockers are being tested I think there is increasingly little merit in breeding from dogs or bitches that are carriers. I'm prepared to be shot down in flames here, but surely as the years go by the gene pool of hereditarily clear or tested clear stock will get big enough to warrant breeding only from them?
I think it's wrong to breed from affected dogs or bitches, even if they're mated to a clear bitch or dog and the pedigrees are endorsed not for breeding. The puppies will be carriers and despite the endorsement there's nothing to stop their owners from breeding from them and simply not registering the litters with the KC.
There are loads of Cocker Spaniels in the area where I live and when I meet owners with puppies I ask them about health testing and I'm amazed at how few have any idea about it.
Have to agree 100% with Elaine!
I also feel the craze for so called 'designer' breeds like labradoodles & cokerpoos will produce a new wave of afflicted dogs, as all three breeds concerned are prone to prcd-PRA. People breeding for fun, because 'they want to' or for financial gain, aren't going to health check their dogs, nor be concerned about their future :'(
(sorry, bit off topic there but still relevant IMO ;) )
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Oooh, this makes me sooooo mad! How can they know that their lines don't have it if they never blooming test for it? I would walk as well but well done on you for at least asking the breeder the question. I make sure that copies of all my health tests are included in the puppy packs and passed onto my new owners! :luv:
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You can check the clears, carriers and affected that HAVE been tested here:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/4741/cockerspanielpraaffecteds.pdf affected
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/4740/cockerspanielpracarriers.pdf carriers
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/4739/cockerspanielpraclears.pdf clear
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Can I just ask if you know why some wouldn't be on the list Sharon? Purdey isn't & I had her tested in July 2006 & she is clear - not that it matters as she is spayed now but just wondered :shades:
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Because when the test first came out results weren't sent direct to the KC, it was up to the owner to send the results to them, you can send them a copy of your certificate and they will add the results
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Ah, I see - thankyou for that Sharon ;)
(sorry to of gone off topic :-* )
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Thanks for all your advise on pra. I guess people still need educating about this condition,I for one knew nothing about dogs let alone cockers and pra :o! But, I have now found my pup from the 4 different breeders I have been pestering with a million questions{sure they were glad to see the back of me! :lol2:}
I've named him Ruben and he is the cutest little thing,He had his shots today,bless him ♥
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Thanks for all your advise on pra. I guess people still need educating about this condition,I for one knew nothing about dogs let alone cockers and pra :o! But, I have now found my pup from the 4 different breeders I have been pestering with a million questions{sure they were glad to see the back of me! :lol2:}
I've named him Ruben and he is the cutest little thing,He had his shots today,bless him ♥
And were his parents tested?
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Yes,but only the mum was clear. I know you may think they still shouldn't be using the dog but I have been searching for a responsible breeder for over a year here in belfast. Hopefully if more people are asking and willing to wait,then the tests will become more common place. Although my vet has told me I should be prepared for all kinds of ailments with him being pedigree :-\
Here's praying for a happy health life for my wee Ruben :luv:
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Not making judgements there...I'm glad you managed to find a tested litter ;)
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Yes,but only the mum was clear. I know you may think they still shouldn't be using the dog but I have been searching for a responsible breeder for over a year here in belfast. Hopefully if more people are asking and willing to wait,then the tests will become more common place. Although my vet has told me I should be prepared for all kinds of ailments with him being pedigree :-\ Here's praying for a happy health life for my wee Ruben :luv:
Not sure if you can get it Rubenkhan but there is a very good article in the October issue of Dogs Today - discussing whether mongrels are healthier than pedigree dogs........ a very interesting read if you could get hold of it. ;)
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Thanks ,i'll have a look for that.
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Millie has been diagnosed with GPRA and cataracts .. annoying thing .. her father and mother were tested and said clear on her KC certificate. >:(
Jennie has the same father, and her dam was never tested, so chances are we'll end up with 2 dogs with this condition. :'(
They've said that Millie will probably be blind within the next year, if not sooner, and since she has both cataracts and PRA there's no point to any operations.. as the specialist said to us 'cleaning the lense on the camera won't make a difference if there's no film in it' .. which we thought was quite a good and understandable simile...
Anyway, glad you've found a pup, fingers crossed he is clear :)
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Millie has been diagnosed with GPRA and cataracts .. annoying thing .. her father and mother were tested and said clear on her KC certificate. >:(
:'( So sorry to read this Kelly & that the prognosis for Jennie might be the same :'(
I understand that even mating clear to clear dogs is not a 100% guarantee that they'll be disease free, with Optigen say there is an 'extremely low risk' to producing affected pups but don't know what stats there are for this info. Hope someone more knowledgable comes along who can maybe explain for you & help you understand :huh: :bigarmhug:
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Was the 'clear' result for the Optigen test or the BVA one? The BVA test checks for changes in the eye so can only go on how they look at that point in time - my boy was diagnosed as 'affected' via Optigen when he was 16 months old but continued to pass the BVA tests for a few years after that.
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thanks Lindsey :)
/off topic
Jay ... hmm I think you've changed your username .. I recognise the names of your cockers; I think you'd not long got Disney when I joined originally :)
/on topic :D
in fact it's a BVA clear; not heard of the Optigen one.. and 'back in the day' when we bought them I wasn't aware either, so thought that it was all good. Seemingly not though :(
We've told the KC that she's affected, haven't 'plucked up' the courage to tell her breeder.. the last time I rang to say that Jennie had an autoimmune eye problem she wasn't all that bothered really :huh:
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Sorry to hear that Millie has PRA.. Our Dylan started last year with cataracts and by Christmas both eyes had developed cataracts. I know how you feel I was devastated when I knew. BUT he has coped very well his life has not changed much, he still has off lead walks only on a long lead where their are woods, don't want him to have an injury. He still attends a training class, and fun dog shows
He like Millie is unsuitable candidate for the operation. We were told the same thing as yourselves. Dogs are very good and they do adapt, and there is a lot of things you can do to help them.
Erica Dylan & Jessie.
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I am doing a lot of research about DNA testing for the PRA eye gene problem before committing to a puppy who's parents haven't been tested.
What I can't work out is if I am worrying for nothing, or whether there is a scary number of breeders who don't realise how much of a problem this is these days!! I've spoken to 3 who have no idea what it even is and are confusing it with DNA profiling (testing to see who the parents are.
I've found gorgeous working cocker puppy with all the other boxes ticked.
What are people's thoughts? Hold off and find a breeder who has done this?
Thanks All!
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What I can't work out is if I am worrying for nothing, or whether there is a scary number of breeders who don't realise how much of a problem this is these days!! I've spoken to 3 who have no idea what it even is and are confusing it with DNA profiling (testing to see who the parents are.
I'm afraid that's the problem - not all breeders are well informed and not all breeders are responsible. Only you can really decide whether you are willing to take the risk of buying from a breeder who does not test. I'm afraid nobody can give you accurate facts and figures about how common PRA is because most clinical cases are diagnosed after a vet referral to an opthalmologist and the results are never published anywhere. Only dogs which have been DNA tested or have failed a clinical eye test will have their results published and while there are now an increasing number of breeders doing these tests, there are still many, many breeding dogs which have never been tested and so no-one knows what their eye status is.
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Hmmm... what a pity. Thank you for this. it's really good to get your opinion. I was driving myself mad with 'research'!
Thanks
Helena
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Good to see Jeff's dad isn't affected - shame they didn't test for deafness/HD/hernia while they were about it >:D
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I've found gorgeous working cocker puppy with all the other boxes ticked.
What are people's thoughts? Hold off and find a breeder who has done this?
Thanks All!
I was in a similar dilemma - I had all good intentions to go for a pup from tested stock but so few working cocker breeders test - I had to compromise in the end.
I think you might be waiting a long time to find a tested worker - unless things have changed in the last year?
When I asked, I got a lot of - "O that's just a Show cocker problem" - I know this isn't strictly true, but it would be really interesting to know the facts - i.e if Show cockers are ~10% positive how much lower is it in working lines?
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When I asked, I got a lot of - "O that's just a Show cocker problem" - I know this isn't strictly true, but it would be really interesting to know the facts - i.e if Show cockers are ~10% positive how much lower is it in working lines?
As explained above, there is no way of knowing the "facts" as such until many more working type dogs are tested. It may appear that show type dogs are more prone to PRA but many more have been tested than working type dogs so it's not a fair comparison at all.
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As explained above, there is no way of knowing the "facts" as such until many more working type dogs are tested. It may appear that show type dogs are more prone to PRA but many more have been tested than working type dogs so it's not a fair comparison at all.
I quite agree - I am all for more testing. If I were to consider breeding from Saffi it would be a prerequisite + hip scoring to. Out of interest, I know there are quite a few affected dogs on COL - how many are working type?
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I've found gorgeous working cocker puppy with all the other boxes ticked.
What are people's thoughts? Hold off and find a breeder who has done this?
Thanks All!
I was in a similar dilemma - I had all good intentions to go for a pup from tested stock but so few working cocker breeders test - I had to compromise in the end.
I think you might be waiting a long time to find a tested worker - unless things have changed in the last year?
When I asked, I got a lot of - "O that's just a Show cocker problem" - I know this isn't strictly true, but it would be really interesting to know the facts - i.e if Show cockers are ~10% positive how much lower is it in working lines?
Same here. It's nigh on impossible to find a breeder or working cockers who test for everything. I know there are a few but among the couple I found there were other things up that I didn't like about the breeder or pups. In an ideal world they would all be tested but they are just not. If I were getting a show ccker I would 100% go fr a tested litter as there is no excuse not to as there are plenty that are tested but it's not the case with working breeders.
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when we were thinking of getting our puppy we did a lot of reading and researching as what to look for and what questions to ask the breeder etc, Amber is our first dog and when we went to see her we asked many questions one being about eye tests in cocker spaniels and the breeders reaction was no we don't test for that and have never had any problems with it, she said rather abruptly does there look any problems with any of my dogs and seemed to put us in our place ! we went to see Amber three times before we brought her home still a bit concerned but we fell in love with her had her vet checked when we got her home the next day with no problems. he said her eyes were fine , the only problem we get with her eyes is that they tend to run (tears) quite a bit but the vet doesn't seem concerned.
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Amber is our first dog and when we went to see her we asked many questions one being about eye tests in cocker spaniels and the breeders reaction was no we don't test for that and have never had any problems with it, she said rather abruptly does there look any problems with any of my dogs and seemed to put us in our place !
Dreadful attitude and quite wrong too. Any breeder could point to their dogs and say there's nothing wrong with them but without testing we just don't know. Breeders can't tell if their dogs are PRA carriers/afflicted without testing and vets can't tell if a puppy will get PRA some time in the future (it's a late onset disease and won't be seen in puppies)
Sadly until puppy buyers refuse to buy from breeders who don't test, there is no incentive for these breeders to change their ways. Not having a go at anyone here but there seems to be a tacit acceptance that it's ok to buy from breeders who don't do any tests if you're after a Working Cocker because it's so difficult to find a breeder who does test :-( And so it goes on ......