Author Topic: Vaccination Alternatives  (Read 9448 times)

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Offline Sheryl

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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2003, 12:47:38 PM »
That is what I was meaning in my earlier post about a dogs individuality not being taken into account.  If the vaccines were given on a dogs individual needs, taking into account things like size and also whether their bodies were actually making enough antibodies to negate the need for another booster I would be far happier.  I know it would mean more messing about and it would be more expensive but I feel it would be worth it.  It couldn't be any more costly than the price I pay for all Chloes drugs and blood screens.   :(                    
Sheryl, Holly, Kali, Baby Lyla and Angel Chloe

Offline *Jay*

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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2003, 02:46:47 PM »
Quote
but another frightening thought that I had heard is that all dogs receive the same quantity of vaccine regardless of size, from Chihuahua to Newfoundland.

Thats true Michele which has always struck me as odd. The more I think about it, the more of a dilemma I'm in as Brook's booster is due next month. Do I booster, not booster or look into the homeopathy ??? Decisions, decisions. He doesn't go to training classes so no problem there but he does come to work every day-wouldn't forgive myself if he picked anything up from there.                    
Dallas ( 10) & Disney ( 9 )

Playing at the Bridge: Brook (13/06/04), Jackson (23/12/05) & Vegas (14/07/10)

Offline Jo W

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« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2003, 09:59:38 AM »
Someone on the rottie forum I'm a member of found an abandoned four month old rottie puppy in a field at the weekend.  She was thin, scarred and had a broken leg.  A vet treated her and the finder took her home, her own dog took to the puppy and all seemed fine.  Then after a couple of days she developed parvo and despite everyone's best efforts, she died.   :(

Apart from feeling very sad that anyone could treat an animal like this, it makes me think twice about vaccinations.  I suppose it's not only a question of protection for your dog, it's also about wiping out disease...  :(                    

Offline Sheryl

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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2003, 12:53:55 PM »
I totally agree with Jo.  Eradication of disease is the only answer.  Even with Chloes' illness and knowing that it was a one in three chance that vaccination played a part, I still get Holly vaccinated.  It isn't that I am convinced that they are 100% safe but that I am more fearful of the alternative.  I fear that we need two things:- more research into the use and effect of vaccination and a way to deal with these owners that have sick and unvaccinated dogs and yet allow them to foul everywhere, thereby perpetuating the problem.  As for owners that leave dogs in the state that the rottie was left in, well, I wish them nothing but ill will.  I am not a nasty person by nature but people like that make me sick.   >:(                    
Sheryl, Holly, Kali, Baby Lyla and Angel Chloe

Offline bluegirl

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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2003, 12:03:58 PM »
My cocker bitch was almost 11 when she developed A.I.H.A. I went on the net and read all about it. I read about the possible link with vaccinations but in my own case I came to the conclusion that the vaccinations were probably not to blame. Cockers are a breed A.I.H.A can occur in especially older unspayed bitches (which she was) it can also be triggered by infections or cancers. In her case she was diagnosed as having a mammary cancer on a postmortum. I think this had started off first which had masked all early symptoms of A.I.H.A
I now have a new pup and was extremely worried about the consequences of immunisation but I decided to vaccinate, but I am interested to hear about alternatives and will make enquiries myself.                    
Karen, Penny, Logan, Phoebe and Bronte.


"Life is a series of dogs".    George Carlin

I was going to take over the world but got distracted by something sparkly.

Offline Jo W

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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2003, 09:45:50 AM »
http://ukbarfclub.co.uk/nm/anmviewer.asp?a=58&z=16

I was just browing back through this thread and had a look at the above link posted earlier.  I think using a rottweiler as an example of nosodes gone wrong is a bit misleading.  Rotties, for some reason, are particularly susceptible to parvo and can contract the disease even when conventionally vaccinated.  Some owners vaccinate against parvo twice a year.....  I'm not fanatically for or against either method of vaccination but I think this highlights the difficulty of getting sound advice and the subsequent dilemma faced by many unsure owners  ::)                    

Offline Jane S

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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2003, 10:06:13 AM »
Hi Jo

If you disagree with the example given in the above link, then why not email the vet who wrote the article? I agree it's confusing for owners but the fact is that there is no definitive answer to the vaccinations question - you will get totally different advice depending on who you are talking to ;) A homeopathic/holistic vet will urge the use of homeopathic nosodes - a conventional vet will poo poo nosodes & urge the use of traditional vaccines. All any owner can do is read up on the subject as much as possible & come to their own decision :)                    
Jane

Offline Jo W

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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2003, 10:26:59 AM »
Hi Jo

If you disagree with the example given in the above link, then why not email the vet who wrote the article? I agree it's confusing for owners but the fact is that there is no definitive answer to the vaccinations question - you will get totally different advice depending on who you are talking to ;) A homeopathic/holistic vet will urge the use of homeopathic nosodes - a conventional vet will poo poo nosodes & urge the use of traditional vaccines. All any owner can do is read up on the subject as much as possible & come to their own decision :)

I might do just that.  However, I was merely highlighting the fact that trustworthy information is difficult to gather - which is more or less what you've said yourself.   I wasn't having a go at the link being posted in the first place, I was just sharing info.  :(                    

Offline Sheryl

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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2003, 01:14:50 PM »
Far be it from me to put said cat amongst proverbial pigeons but I have to exercise my right to disagree with parts of what Bluegirl may be suggesting.  In my four years of researching info on Chloes AIHA and also many trips to Meishas hope and other sites and conversations with Joanne Dickson, I have never come across anywhere that suggests that older unspayed bitches are more susceptible.  Chloe was spayed and two years old when she started with AIHA so not at all in those categories.  I think also, that we can no longer state that AIHA is breed specific as my vet tells me that they are having more and more mixed breed cases in now.  I have never been inclined to say that this is or isn't definitely what caused Chloes AIHA because even after doing all my research, I still am not qualified to make such statements.  I have a funny feeling that there may be many cases that have the label AIHA when they are not, which doesn't help.  After fours years plus of shovelling drugs down Chloe all I can say (again) is that until somebody gives me proof positive about what the cause is, I will continue to get Holly vaccinated. :(
A very weary AIHA mummy xx                    
Sheryl, Holly, Kali, Baby Lyla and Angel Chloe

Offline bluegirl

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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2003, 04:40:16 PM »
Hi, I am no expert either but I definately read about unspayed  cocker bitches of middle to older age being at higher risk. This was back in October 2002 I did print out all relevent articles but because she died I didnt keep them. I've just tried to look again but couldn't see the article. It was written by American Vets. However hormonal fluctuations of oestrogen or a pregnacy can effect the immune system and hormonal changes within the previous 30-45 days prior to symptoms of A.I.H.A were identified as  a potential trigger of the disease. Hormonal influences are one of the 4 main causative factors of autoimmune disease. Cockers in some studies were up to one third more likely to be affected by A.I.H.A (by any means) than other breeds and within the cockers the girls were 3-4 times more likely to develop A.I.H.A   It could be suggested that if girls are more susceptible it could be because of oestrogen and therefore middle aged bitches who haven't been spayed would have had more circulating hormones and therefore their risk had increased (as in the theory of breast cancers the longer you leave it to spay a bitch the more her chance is of getting mammary tumours) ?                    
Karen, Penny, Logan, Phoebe and Bronte.


"Life is a series of dogs".    George Carlin

I was going to take over the world but got distracted by something sparkly.

Offline Sheryl

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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2003, 06:28:43 PM »
Yep, I have to agree with you on the girls more likely to be victims than boys scenario, I did come across that also in my research but never found anything that made the connection with hormones.  Also, never read anything that gave hormones as a possible trigger for AIHA.  The studies I found were 1) vaccines 2) genetic predisposition 3) stress (although this to a lesser extent)  I do not altogether put much faith in the stress theory and as far as the genetic predisposition, well that works to a point but does not explain the appearance now in the supposedly sturdier mixed breed population.  I wonder about breed specific figures and how reliable they are when AIHA is so hard to diagnose and sometimes misdiagnosed.  Testing is so unreliable, even with the Coombs test, which doesn't always give accurate results.  Chloe was tested three times, all when her red cell count was 9 and below and not once was her Coombs positive.  If it had not been for the vets and their faith in what they knew (despite readings to the contrary), Chloe would not have got the treatment she needed fast enough to prevent organ damage.  I guess it is all annoyingly vague.  This may be a factor, that may play a part, this may be a trigger, that may be a cause, bottom line is that nobody can say with any certainty and until they do, you cannot protect your babies against it.  One thing I did forget to say to you before though was that I am sorry that your life was touched by this disease.  I don't know how long your baby had it but I have sympathy with any and all who have had to cope with AIHA.

Sheryl, Holly and Chloe the wonder dog.                    
Sheryl, Holly, Kali, Baby Lyla and Angel Chloe

Offline bluegirl

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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2003, 11:28:25 PM »
Thanks, I guess things probably started to go wrong for her in Jan 02. She was drinking quite a bit and urinating an awful lot. I took her to the vets were they did blood tests and diagnosed early kidney failure. She was also loosing weight steadily. All the symptoms mimicked other diseases. A few months later she started with acute abdo pain which they diagnosed as pancreatitis. She recovered from this but her liver enzymes started to rise and she had a dither and lethargy and was still loosing weight, but because she had been alittle portly she was still within normal cocker weight range.She was also becoming steadily more aneamic, (but I guess not enough for treatment). A few months later I noticed a large lump on her mammary line. I took her back again and following further blood tests they decided to operate. She was again aneamic but they told me to give her liver before the op. She had the op on the Wednesday and appeared well initially but by Thursday afternoon they wanted me to consent to giving her blood transfusions or she really wouldn't make it.I was beside myself I went to her and sat with her for days she was flat and grey looking. They didn't tell me what was wrong but I knew it wasn't right. I came home and searched the net , instinctively looking at auto immune diseases. When I went back the day after I was armed with all my internet print offs. They told me they had been treating her for A.I.H.A since Thursday with all the latest drugs and plasma expanders. They fought with her for 4 days to try and reverse the disease but she did die. On post mortem it was revealed that she had a very aggressive form of cancer that had probably started on the mammary line. I was devastated, I had lost my baby. The only thing I would say to anyone else is that if your dog is showing signs of persistent aneamia check out which form of aneamia it is first before any surgery is considered then treament may work. The only good thing to come from Bonnie's death is my new best friend ,Penny, Another blue roan girl.                    
Karen, Penny, Logan, Phoebe and Bronte.


"Life is a series of dogs".    George Carlin

I was going to take over the world but got distracted by something sparkly.

Offline Sheryl

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« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2003, 09:17:41 AM »
I really am very sorry about your baby.  Even the anaemia can be an issue though.  I know in the USA they advocate transfusions and although in Chloes three, 9 below red cell counts they did take the vets dog in, he firmly believes it can do more harm than good.  They decided against it all three times and she is still here to tell the tale.  I sometimes wonder if it has been harder on Chloe to be a survivor of this.  With her daily steroid and chemotherapy drugs, her twice yearly blood screens and her almost monthly infections, you could say her quality of life is poor.  Yet she is a happy little baby who loves life anyway.  For me, waiting for the drugs that are keeping her alive to eventually destroy her liver is like waiting for the death sentence for myself. :'(                    
Sheryl, Holly, Kali, Baby Lyla and Angel Chloe

Offline bluegirl

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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2003, 09:58:34 AM »
I used herbal infusions with my dog to try to correct the problems and they did help. I used parsley and honey to bring the kidney levels back within normal limits and I used dandelion leaves and woodworm for the liver and they too returned to normal limits. I tried black fruits and nettles for the aneamia but of course this didn't work because she didn't have iron deficiency aneamia and these herbs can't help for haemolytic types. It may be worth adding shredded dandelion leaves to your dogs diet to help the liver. It can't do any harm. I was aware of the risks of a transfusion but when faced with she'll die if you don't then I took the chance fortunately she didn't react to the blood. I feel the cancer had started in January which had triggered the auto immune response and the surgery was the final blow as she was unable to regenerate the blood cells. They told me she probably wouldn't have made it to xmas anyway because the cancer was so aggressive and would have almost certainly been in alot of pain by this time. My decision to let them operate was the wrong but at least she didnt see it coming and was on pain killers and steriods etc so hopefully pain was minimal. At least she knew I was with her and she licked me to say goodbye. I really do wish you well with her treatment.                    
Karen, Penny, Logan, Phoebe and Bronte.


"Life is a series of dogs".    George Carlin

I was going to take over the world but got distracted by something sparkly.