What's your view on giving booster vaccinations?

[fifer]

in answer to the previous post.....

a)  Do I live in an area where there are loads of pet/stray dogs/foxes, or am I going to show my dog. (Increased risk of contact with disease)

or - if I show my dog it will be exposed to more things, and therefore as a result it's immune system will become stronger.  Especially if I feed it a species specific diet, so that it's immune system works properly.

So what if it catches Parvo on it's first outing?

b)  Did I get my dog from an area where Parvo/Distemper are very unlikely to have occurred? (I got a hound from a rural Highland area - it took 4 vacs and the added cost of titre testing 4 times to get her titre up to an acceptable level to show her!)


or - as tests have shown, some dogs (Rotties, and Dobes for example) never get an acceptable titre to some diseases.  A titre test is only measuring circulating antibodies - NOT memory cells, which are what create an immune response should your dog be challenged by the disease.  A low titre does not actually mean low protection, it means that your dog has not been challenged lately.

Exactly! antibodies grow in response to stimuli - no stimulus - no antibodies - low result in titre test.  Which is why I titre tested said dog, I would not risk a dog with low antibodies at a dog show until it gained sufficient "safer" at home exposure with the rest of my hounds.

c)  Is there a large rat population in your area? (Having lost a dog to Lepto I would not advise anyone not to get this cover, at least when there is an upsurge in rat population, a truly horrible death!)


my friend's mother is a pest control officer, dealing with rats every single day of her life.  She has never been vaccinated for Lepto, and has never caught it, despite her close proximity with rats every day.  There are many many strains of Lepto, the vaccinations only cover two or three.  You cannot titre test for Lepto either.

It's Weil's disease in humans (and if you'll pardon my presumption, your friend's mother is unlikely to drink from puddles!!! try to stop dogs doing that!)

e)  Do the boarding kennels I use accept titre testing? (Most only accept valid vaccination certs)


so find an alternative - take the dog with you / leave it with a friend / hire a dogsitter.

I DO!!


f)  Some vets insist on annual boosters and will not accept your dog as a patient unless you agree.


I have never ever heard this.  Sounds like a breach of something though .  Vets are obliged to treat any animal.....  I don't vaccinate ANY of my pets, my vets totally understand and accept (and some of them agree) with my reasons.  It would be a very narrow minded vet that would say they won't accept you as a patient unless you vaccinate your dog. YOUR LUCKY!!

I understand that you've had a bad experience  and it does colour one's view, but some dogs will get AI and some won't, like you say it should be an individual choice (never an easy one I know  ).......

[Penel]

Of course, we are all affected by our own experiences, which is why I was sharing mine.  Everyone thinks it won't happen to their dog, and that it's very rare - that's exactly what I thought.  Some dogs have a genetic predispositon to develop an AI disease.  Some will be triggered by a vaccination, like Saffy's was - some will be triggered by applying a flea chemical, or giving antibiotics, or stress caused by fireworks.  Cockers have a higher genetic predisposition than some other breeds, they are up there with Beardies, Weims and Springers.  I know this because I run a support group for people with dogs that have AI diseases, and have run the group for nearly 6 years now, so I know the breeds that crop up again and again and again.  You can also do searches on breeds that get AI disease which back up what I am saying.

[kb]

I have always worried about this and although in the end we did agree to have Honey's boosters in the end, this time, we did think long and hard and deliberate over the choice. I fully understand the concern about vaccinating - introducing any vaccination cariies a small degree of risk; no vaccination is completely risk free. The other consideration is that without taking a titre you have no idea of the immune status - the reason that you give boosters is not to "prolong" immunity as such - it is because of the risk of not convertibg to immue status with the intital injection.

I think Penel said that everyone's immune system works differently - one might convert to imune status after the initial jab - but another may not. They give boosters primarily incase you haven't achieved complete immunity with the initial jab. Therefore even though you have your dog vaccinated there is no absolute guarantee it is immune.

I don't think I am explaining this very well - take humans working in the health service. They have to have a hep B jab - a series of 3 jabs sometimes. They are also advised to have boosters. However before boosters are given they do a titre to estimate immunity. Out ofo ne lot of ward staff - you will find all different levels of immunity with the same course of vaccination - some will ahev achieved immunity, some will after the booster and some will never no matter how many boosters they get.

They used to give tetanus boosters routinely after injuries - but now they do not if you know your vaccination history, because lifetime immunity is assumed if you have had the full course routinely.

It is quite complex and no guarantees can be made either way

[shonajoy]

Hamish hasn't been vaccinated again, and never will be as he has autoimmune thrombocytopaenia. I agree with Penel on this -I think it's one of the most hideous, rollercoaster, and emotional nightmare diseases going, often with no answers.

 It's been well documented here about Ham's ups and downs, and I never feel 100% ok with him, in case it happens again. It's always in the back of your mind that the next one could be the one that kills him, or should he go for a five mile walk h lovs and livs for, in cas he ovrdoes it? Or when hes stuck in a cage in vet hospital for days, misrable-is it fair or should we stop treating him and bring him home. It's a living hell because we love him so much,

I was talking to a vet the other day who advised I should vaccinate him - yeah right. Indie is having titres drawn, and if he's ok he won't be vaccinated either.

[spanielcrazy]

Hamish hasn't been vaccinated again, and never will be as he has autoimmune thrombocytopaenia. I agree with Penel on this -I think it's one of the most hideous, rollercoaster, and emotional nightmare diseases going, often with no answers.

 It's been well documented here about Ham's ups and downs, and I never feel 100% ok with him, in case it happens again. It's always in the back of your mind that the next one could be the one that kills him, or should he go for a five mile walk h lovs and livs for, in cas he ovrdoes it? Or when hes stuck in a cage in vet hospital for days, misrable-is it fair or should we stop treating him and bring him home. It's a living hell because we love him so much,

I was talking to a vet the other day who advised I should vaccinate him - yeah right. Indie is having titres drawn, and if he's ok he won't be vaccinated either.

Aw, Shona, I'm so sorry you are going through this, it is just an awful thing

 My Crackers had it, along with autoimmune hemolytic anemia, it is just horrible. She was on daily prednisone, which is dodgy in itself but the alternative leaves no choice. She did live 7 more years, only had one relapse sbout 5 months after the first attack. But you always worry... (She was 15 when she died, I think it was just old age and not the ITP that took her)

I firmly believe that it was caused by vaccines, I over-vaccinated her--stupidly--as she was being exposed to parvo frequently. She was a year old when I was doing this stupid thing, the AIHA/ITP showed up when she was seven.

I am getting a show puppy in the spring and my plan, according to the new protocols I've researched, is to give the 3 puppy shots, then at one year I will titre test and make a decision then as to whether or not to booster.

[Helen]

big squidge to his royal ham-ship shona, i had wondered about his AI and you've confirmed what i dreaded.

i find it very very frightening the amount of cockers succumbing to AI and there must be many more with symptoms undiagnosed

i hope hamish has many more happy years with you shona, he is a wonderful boy and is so well loved

[shonajoy]

big squidge to his royal ham-ship shona, i had wondered about his AI and you've confirmed what i dreaded.

i find it very very frightening the amount of cockers succumbing to AI and there must be many more with symptoms undiagnosed

i hope hamish has many more happy years with you shona, he is a wonderful boy and is so well loved

Thankyou- his Hamship, kills me every time Yep, at work we are seeing more and more cases too, two last week, one a border collie and one a springer. Hamish is doing well at the moment is on a tiny (a quarter evry three days) dose of pred, and azathioprene, has loast all his steroid weight, and is holding firm. Of course, now I've dared utter that, -well fingers crossed. He's happy for now.

[Cob-Web]

Are there any national figures published (by the RCVS or similar) to show how many dogs are diagnosed with auto-immune related conditions each year? I would be interested to know if the incidence is increasing and whether there is any research into the reasons for it - it may change my opinion of the risks to Molo 

[Penel]

No Rachel there aren't - although there are studies about certain breeds (and AI ) going on, there won't be any results for a few years yet.  I can tell you from my group though, incidences are becoming recognised more often.  A few years ago Addison's disease, for example, would often have been incorrectly diagnosed as kidney failure and the dog would have died. 
On CIMDA support, we have about 180 members atm - it waxes and wanes - when peoples dogs get better (or not ) they leave, and when they are first diagnosed (or relapse), they join in.....
The genetic predisposition is increasing due to selective breeding, especially of pedigree dogs.  The popular sire sydrome is a huge problem.

[shonajoy]

There's also not a definitive test really - and not many vets know anything about it, so I imagine it is still missed loads of times.  Ham's vet is now really into finding out more about it, but a lot of vets aren't aware.

[Penel]

Yes , it depends on the disease.  For example, if a dog seems lethargic, a vet may take a full blood chem, and find out the dog is anaemic.  This can be caused by several things - including AIHA - and in the time it takes a vet to find out what has caused it, a dog with AIHA can die as their red blood cell count can drop very dramatically.  Like with Hamish, and IMTP, platelets can drop very fast and a dog can bleed out, internally, without the vet knowing what's wrong.  One of my mother's dogs died from AIHA about 9 years ago, the first sign of her being ill was a collapse, she died the next day despite massive doses of steroids (correct treatment).

Back to the OP and OQ - a dog that is not entirely 100% healthy should not be vaccinated (according to the manufacturers recommendations)  so I think that rules out Paddy.

[Cob-Web]

The genetic predisposition is increasing due to selective breeding, especially of pedigree dogs.  The popular sire sydrome is a huge problem.

Yes, I can see that being a really big problem - especially as the sire may never be affected himself, but it could affect random progeny spread out over a series of litters, that the breeder may never know about   

It is hard, because without the research, it is difficult to make an informed choice - as you say, the increase in incidents may be due to better diagnosis rather than a real increase in the numbers of dogs affected; so how is it possible to accurately judge how the risk of an adverse vaccination reaction compares to the risk of illness/injury from a raw diet, for instance? I know that both CAN happen; but how can I make an informed decision?

I have never had a dog with AI, just as I have never had a dog that has been affected by a disease that can be vaccinated against; so my personal opinion is not influenced by my past experiences......and threads like this tend to present the extremes, but there is no research to provide evidence for either position, yet 

[Penel]

That's because its the multi billion $ drug companies that do the research.  Do you think they are going to research to prove their drugs are no longer necessary ?  They've already gone as far as saying they only need to be done every 3 years, and that's made a huge drop in their revenues.  Vaccs made up to 40% of their income.

The homeopathic vet we see told me this.... when he worked with other people in a bigger practice - they made a group decision to not recommend vaccinating annually.  They also made a decision to not sell any prescription diets, and to recommend a raw diet.  Their client numbers doubled, and their income halved - their patients all became healthier.

[shonajoy]

That's because its the multi billion $ drug companies that do the research.  Do you think they are going to research to prove their drugs are no longer necessary ?  They've already gone as far as saying they only need to be done every 3 years, and that's made a huge drop in their revenues.  Vaccs made up to 40% of their income.

The homeopathic vet we see told me this.... when he worked with other people in a bigger practice - they made a group decision to not recommend vaccinating annually.  They also made a decision to not sell any prescription diets, and to recommend a raw diet.  Their client numbers doubled, and their income halved - their patients all became healthier.

But he has an interest too in saying that - he's charging a fair whack for homeopathic remedies.....

[sarahp]

That's because its the multi billion $ drug companies that do the research.  Do you think they are going to research to prove their drugs are no longer necessary ?  They've already gone as far as saying they only need to be done every 3 years, and that's made a huge drop in their revenues.  Vaccs made up to 40% of their income.

The homeopathic vet we see told me this.... when he worked with other people in a bigger practice - they made a group decision to not recommend vaccinating annually.  They also made a decision to not sell any prescription diets, and to recommend a raw diet.  Their client numbers doubled, and their income halved - their patients all became healthier.

But he has an interest too in saying that - he's charging a fair whack for homeopathic remedies.....

I paid Mark £124 when he saw Dill - that was for the consultation and the remedies.  I had previously paid over £500 (I cannot remember the exact breakdown of the figures but I remeber mark' being roughly a 1/5th) to conventional vets - including two lots of £14 for some prescription diet, at least 2 lots of anti-b's, anti-sickness drugs, anti-diawotsit drugs blood tests, faeces tests urine tests and numerous consultaion fees.  Dill hasn't needed a vet since - except for castration    I know what I think was the value for money 

ETA - none of the conventional stuff worked btw