itchy cocker

[dog22]

my cocker has an itchy problem and i would like to know what to do for him.he tends to concentrate on his front paws, his muzzle,his bottom under his tail,and he shakes his head and ears.he also has a smell about him which i cant really describe.his coat sheds a lot when he shakes but he doesnt have any sores or bare patches.
do i change his food?he is on a dried complete with tinned butchers.if his food needs to be changed on my budget it needs to be as reasonably priced as possible.
he has been to the vet who prescibed malaseb shampoo but i cant really use that in his ears.is thornit powder any good for yeast problems in ears?

[john51]

Sorry to hear you're having problems. Itchiness can be caused by so many things that it's a bit of a nightmare to track down the cause. If the vet has prescribed a malaseb shampoo he's probably trying to treat an overgrowth of fungus and/or bacteria on the dog's skin. They could be secondary problems to an allergy which could be to food, to flea or other parasites or to environmental things such as dust mites or pollen. I think a vet would normally check for flea and infection problems first, followed by food allergies, before finally suspecting environmental allergies.

If you want to try to track this down yourself, then assuming you're happy that there's no flea or similar problems, you could try to find out whether there's a food allergy. The classic way to do that is to find a food that is based on a protein and carbohydrate that the dog has not had before and feed that exclusively for a period of 8 to 12 weeks. If the itching gets better, the original food can be reintroduced at that stage, and if food allergy was the problem, itching will normally start within 14 days.

A typical combination might be a fish and potato hypoallergenic food that has just those ingredients in it (ie no corn, wheat, rice etc.). Alternatively, you could make something at home or use a food made from hydrolysed proteins. In this case the proteins are broken up so the body doesn't recognise them as things it is allergic to. Unfortunately this type of food is not going to be cheap. You need to be really careful that the dog eats nothing else for the trial period. Don't let people give him treats because commercial treats have all sorts of proteins in them.

If you don't want to start that yet, you could try cutting out commercial treats to see if that helps. If you let me know what food you currently feed I could try to suggest an alternative although inevitably it would be a bit hit and miss.

When it comes to the ears, I would not use Thornits. Instead you need to clean the ears regularly using either a commercial ear cleaner, or some people recommend a dilute vinegar and water mix. There are ear cleaners with anti-fungal agents like ketaconazole but I think they are prescription only. If there is an allergy then the ears are often a potential trouble are and it would be worth trying to keep them clean.

Hope that helps and good luck trying to sort out your dog's itches.

[dog22]

thanks for replying.it is crucial i get him treated as i havnt had him long and the rescue want him back because i have expressed a worry at being able to afford the vets bills if the cause cant be found without lots of vets visits.i have just found i am losing my job.i took him on as the rescue said in excellent health,unfortunately for the dog and me he isnt in excellent health he is scratching.i took him to the vet a few days after i got him as i noticed the scratching and scooting they expressed one side of his anal glands and didnt look further so i changed vets to one recommended to me they said his tail had been severely docked and it was worrying him but prescribed malaseb.that may or may not be enough but if its his food or the environment or our home(we dont have rugs or carpets)then it sounds as if it may be a long time and lots of trial and error to get him right.i so want to be able to do this but financially worry i cant.i dont want to give him up to the rescue as we have got so fond of him and he is a lovely dog.
so to summerise it may be his food it may be the outside environment it may be our home environment it may be mites it may be a yeast infection.is there any way a vet can tell which of these it is quickly?

[john51]

A vet will want to be systematic and go through a process to identify any problem. This could be quick if it it turns out to be one of the first things they check, or if through experience they recognise the symptoms, or it could drag on for a while.

First things first; I am guessing that your vets are not seeing this as a major problem at this stage. You have taken your dog to two vets with itchiness and they have not identified any problems with acute infections that need treating. You say there is no redness in the skin or patches of hair loss which suggests that the problem is not severe. That's not to say it's not uncomfortable for the dog.

They have prescribed malaseb shampoo, has that had any effect in reducing the itchiness?

I would have expected the vets to have considered fleas and mites when they examined the dog. Did they comment on that?

There really are no easy answers to this. If you are sure, based on the vets' examinations, that it is unlikely to be a problem with fleas or mites, and the symptoms do not get any worse, I think you could try yourself to find out whether there is an underlying food allergy. If however you decide the symptoms are bad enough, then you probably need a vet to get to the bottom of things. If it turns out to be environmental the vet may even want to refer you to a specialist clinic.

I'm not sure whether that helps but it is based on my own experience with Lenny's referral for atopy investigations. If you have any questions please ask.

[dog22]

thanks John for the reply.The vet said if the malaseb didnt work then he may have to have a biopsy.not sure what that entails or if its costly?the malaseb does help a bit but the weather has been so bad that to bath him and have him standing in the bathroom for 10 minutes shivering while it takes effect then take him for a walk so he can dry off naturally is not do-able on a regular basis.we had a sunny day the other day and bathed him took him for a walk and he managed to get into a puddle deep enough to swim in so the effect hasnt lasted as it should.the vet prescribed Advocate for fleas/mites and as he has had that regularly he should be covered on that score.Do mites carry an odour or is that a sign of yeast?i have looked online and found that mites and yeast seem to have the same symptoms.he does scoot quite a bit but both visits to the vet have drawn a negative on the anal glands needing emptying so the scooting isnt that.he rubs his mouth on the floor too and shakes his head.when he is on a walk he doesnt do any of these things except the scooting.he has a lot of coat shedding when he shakes.i bought him some vetzyme antibacterial ear drops dont know if they are any good as they used to work wonders for my old cocker so will see because the ear thing is a recent occurance.the previous fosterer said she did notice he cleaned himself a lot as in his bits and bobs.he is an entire male and very unsociable with it,i would like to turn the sound effects down!not particularly great when the little grandchildren are round.i dont blame the rescue for thinking he may not get vet treatment but i am doing my best in the face of losing my job and if its going to be costly i have to let him go.but if theres anything i can do more than i am doing such as food then i am happy to try but they dont want to give me that amount of time before returning him.what is the cheapest complete food that is for allergic dogs?and what form would treats take because he is fond of his treats and i cant see him going without between meals being a typical cocker!

[dog22]

a bit added as i have just been reading online is there a fish oil or any oil i can give him with his food to help the skin?i really need a shopping list so i can get some food and some oil and something to put in his ears for the yeast.i am trying to find out if there is a spray i can use in his ears.malaseb do a spray which i think can be used in the ears but i need to get that from the vets so will end up with a bill there.sorry to sound penny pinching but it means i can keep him if i can get on top of this.

[john51]

Hi, the treatment with the shampoo should help to reduce any yeast overgrowth so it's important to keep that up and make sure the shampoo is left on for the required time before rinsing off. We have been told to bath Lenny once per week to help with his atopy and we use a hairdryer to help to dry him off and warm him up.

I don't think mites themselves have an odour but the infections they cause, as well as yeast infections and bacterial infections can give a distinctive smell. I would work on the basis that if two vets haven't detected mites that it is not the problem at this stage. I'm not sure what test the vet will carry out if the shampoo doesn't work - biopsies are usually carried out to identify the cells in a tumour - but they may want to do a skin scrape to check if there are any parasites. The scooting, scratching and head-shaking just tell you that the dog is itchy and the smell, and the treatment prescribed, suggest that the dog could have a yeast infection which could certainly be the cause of the itchiness. I think the vet is trying to see whether he can bring the yeast infection under control with a shampoo before looking for other causes such as parasites or an underlying allergy.

When it comes to ears, anti-bacterial drops probably won't do anything specific to fight the yeast infection but it is important to keep the ears clean while this problem is around otherwise there is a chance that the ears could develop a bacterial infection as well. The vetzyme drops are described as a cleanser as well, so should help from that point of view although they're more expensive than a standard ear cleaner such as Epi-otic.

If you buy commercial treats and look at the ingredients you will see that most of them list "cereals" and "meat derivatives". That means that you don't know which vegetable and animal proteins they contain. If you suspect a food allergy (although it is not definite that he has an allergy at this stage) then you need to know what proteins he is eating so that you can identify and remove the problem protein(s) from his diet. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind and if no treats means less itching it might a good swap! Most dogs will eat raw carrot as a treat and there are a few brands of 100% fish skin treats around now that he could try.

You've not said what food he eats but the trouble with some of the cheaper foods is that they contain a lot of cereals and other ingredients that are potential allergens. You need to find something with a limited number of proteins - preferably new to the dog but as you don't know his history you may have to guess. If you try the Which Dog Food site you can specify a weekly cost and they suggest possible foods with star rating. http://www.whichdogfood.co.uk/

If you want to take a look and let me know what you like the look of I can try to help further. As an example, Skinners Field and Trial Duck and Rice is listed as £22.99 for 15kg or Salmon and Rice is £26.99. Diet could be a factor in this and I think it is worth trying out some other foods. (But no commercial treats!)

Finally omega 3 and 6 oils have been credited in some studies with helping with allergy problems. You can buy 1000mg capsules of cod-liver oil and try that possibly with 1000mg capsules of evening primrose oil. Healthspan http://www.healthspan.co.uk/default.aspx is usually a good, cheap source.

[dog22]

you have so much good information!!i will have to sit down and read the food guide when i have got quite a bit of time so i can see whats best.i am also going to the pet shop today if i can to browse the shelves and see whats what.the good thing is he doesnt have any bare patches or sore skin or draw blood but i am aware he does find certain areas uncomfortable.what level of protein should i be looking for?also he is a lean dog and seems to keep that way so i dont need to go for a lite food.he is active when out but sleeps for england at night!he is 10 years old.i know i have to keep the baths up and they have lapsed with the bad weather and we live in the middle of a mudfield most of the year round.the vet said not to towel dry or pat or use a hairdryer so he has basically to drip dry!he feels the cold and he feels the heat easily so i worry when he shivers and shakes.i will carry on with the ear drops then but am a bit sonfused as to if i have to treat the body with the shampoo and then what to treat the inside of the ears with?i wondered if malaseb spay can be used inside the ears?

[mollydubh]

Hi, i've found aloe vera very good in the past for use with one of my cockers who had quite bad ezema, James Wellbeloved is also a good kibble for dogs with sensitive skin, one of the problems that i encountered was the vet did skin scrapings and loads of tests but they just prescribed steroids constantly, hope you find a solution 

[john51]

I checked the instructions for using malaseb shampoo with several sites and only one had a reference to not using a towel or hair dryer - and that was to make sure that the inflamed skin wasn't irritated. In the case of (what's your dog called?) his skin doesn't sound that bad so I think you could pat him with a towel gently to get the worst of the wetness off and even use a hair dryer with care (keeping it moving) - it's only like drying him off in a warm room. Of course if the skin develops any inflammation you'll have to revert to a dripping dog!

When it comes to food it would be better to have a higher meat content and lower carbohydrate content. If he is a good weight, as you say, I wouldn't worry about getting a senior food which has reduced calories. I certainly wouldn't get a senior food which is specifically lower protein as older dogs need as much as, or more good quality protein than adult dogs. At this stage I would concentrate on trying a food with a limited number of proteins to see if there is an allergy problem with his current food. As mollydubh says, one of the JW foods might be suitable but they cost around twice as much as the Skinner's which is for working dogs and therefore VAT-free. 

I did a bit of research and it seems that some people do use a malaseb flush for ears. However at this stage you could just concentrate on keeping them clean using a standard ear cleaner. As the body overcomes the condition that leads to the overgrowth of yeast, the ears may well clear up on their own. When I took Lenny to the Animal Health Trust for his investigations he had a yeast growth in his ears and they just suggested using Epi-otic as a cleaner. Commercial cleaners like that will change the pH of the ear and help to keep the ear dry therefore removing the conditions that yeast and bacteria enjoy.

Stick at it, I'm sure he'll start to improve soon! As you say you've not had him long I wonder whether the problem is anything to do with the stress of of moving?

I'd love to see a picture of him sometime!

[Jessie_Pup]

Jessie was getting ear infections from time to time.  At first the vet just wanted to keep her ear dry and trimmed. I was also using a bit of Thornits. Her eyes started to look very angry inside, so tried a different regime. She know has a mild cleaner Sancerum with a dose of steroid added. Her ear flap is kept clear of hair.  I also changed her diet to Acana grain free. Her last check up her ears were clear with very little wax.  I hope  your dog feels better soon.


Erica.

[john51]

Hi, Erica,

Was Jessie's ear problem linked with any underlying cause that was identified? On the vet's advice I have stopped the steroid drops that Lenny was having and am just continuing with ear cleaner and daily omega 3 and 6 oils. His right ear has definitely got muckier since the steroid was dropped but the left ear is still fine. It will be interesting to see if the ears stay free from infection. I am still working on the assumption that he has an atopic allergy as a basic problem.

[Jessie_Pup]

No. He did ask me if she had any red patches anywhere else but her skin is all clear. She also has her salmon oil once a day, also Fish 4 Dogs treats like the Sea Jerky.  Jessie has one ear also that is troublesome always her left, the right not so bad but he wanted to treat both. Her next checkup in Jan2013.
Erica.

[dog22]

well i bought some barking heads for itchy skin problems today and will have to see if he will eat it because he is a very fussy old man!i am guessing i cant feed tinned meat with it or if i can which one is best considering i am trying to get him off cereals to see if that will help his itching.i cant see him eating just dried.i know i can cook up some chicken and as its a complete food he doesnt need anything else with it but i know he ownt eat it uness theres some meat with it and he loves his tinned meat.

[Jessie_Pup]

Lilys Kitchen do a tinned grain free wet food.   A good quality too.